Portuguese Water Dog and Doodle - Compare and Contrast

B-Line · 05-07-2008, 02:51 PM

Greetings folks.

I want to start this thread by saying, I really hope this will not turn into a Doodle bashing thread. That is not the intention, so lets keep the thread on topic and civil.

There have been a lot of questions raised about the differences and similarities of the Portuguese Water Dog and the Doodle, so I thought I would take the time to address some of the questions that have previously been raised and address any new questions that may come up.
I'm not an expert on the breed, but I do have two. A puppy and a 12 year old.

There seem to be quite a few, and vocal, Doodle owners on this site but I think I am the only PWD parent. So I wanted to chime in with some facts and opinions for us to discuss.

I would also like to state that this thread is not, "my dog is better than yours" or "you should be ashamed, blah, blah, blah.." I'm honestly hoping to encourage, positive, friendly, debate.

I have heard from Doodle owners, that they considered a PWD but heard the PWD was too hyper, active and needed too much exercise.

- So I decided to look up the breed traits on the internet of the 3 breeds, the Golden, the Standard and the PWD.

- Poodle
The Poodle has about him an air of distinction and dignity peculiar to himself. Carrying himself proudly, very active and intelligent.

- Golden Retriever
Golden Retrievers MUST have regular opportunities to vent their energy and do interesting things. Otherwise they will become rambunctious and bored -- which they usually express by becoming destructive. Bored Goldens can make a shambles of your house and yard.

-Portuguese Water Dog
willing to please, this is an obedient dog. Spirited, with great stamina, yet calm. Portuguese Water Dogs have a super sense of humor and love to be in the spotlight of attention.

My point is, all three breeds are listed as being, highly energetic, in-need of exercise and stimulation and discipline. So why people think the PWD is crazy, while the Doodle doesn't have "high energy characteristics" is a little beyond me. All three breeds rate the same.

Here is a picture of a PWD, Wavy, coated:

and

Vs. xamples of Doodle's

So, they are similar in temperament, coat type, size, appearance, etc. However, the PWD primary color tends to be black while the Doodle's range more commonly from white to black.

But there are variations of the PWD color also. Black, White, Brown and everything in between:

I just wanted to open this topic up for discussion. Again, neither breed is "better" and you Doodle owners have beautiful, sweet dogs.

B-Line · 05-07-2008, 02:52 PM

And here is a picture of a multi colored PWD puppy

I should also add, that one of the big reasons these dogs are compared is because, ideally,
They both have Hypo-allergenic coats. They don't shed.

They are also both medium sized, water retrieving, intelligent animals that are great family dogs.

So the question I have always asked,
Why have they invented a breed that has almost identical characteristics to an existing breed?

Pai · 05-07-2008, 03:11 PM

They do look very similar!

wvasko · 05-07-2008, 03:14 PM

Golden Retriever, Poodle, Portuguese Water Dog are AKC recognized breeds. Doodle is a mixed breed.

Pai · 05-07-2008, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wvasko

Golden Retriever, Poodle, Portuguese Water Dog are AKC recognized breeds. Doodle is a mixed breed.

Yes... we all know that.

Motebi · 05-07-2008, 03:19 PM

PWDs are a working breed, bred for a purpose. Doodles aren't.

They are companion dogs and that's it.

Having said that, I wonder how many underworked PWDs are out there........

lovemygreys · 05-07-2008, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B-Line

So the question I have always asked,
Why have they invented a breed that has almost identical characteristics to an existing breed?

Good question. Though, doodles aren't a breed and PWDs are. And with a pure breed you get more predictability in physical traits and temperament as well. For families looking for a specific type of dog, a pure breed can be a better way to go. I love the texture of the PWD wavy coat. The 'doodles' I've met have had a variety of coats, none of which come close to the PWD. The handful of PWDs I've met have been extremely intelligent...and very active!

When the doodle craze hit, the dogs were a status symbol. I think that's waning a bit now (thank doG) and, if anything, there's even a bit of

when people refer to their poodle/whatever mix as a doodle. I'm sure, though, the responsible PWD breeders are quite happy to not have to had dealt with a PWD craze. Great dogs that they are, they aren't for everyone.

dog-man · 05-07-2008, 03:28 PM

as i mentioned, my experience with PWD is very limited.

i met two on vacation, and have a friend that has two.
in both instances, one was calm and was not.

so, i am only going to refer to a book that i used while researching dogs, and why i opted at that time for the goldendoodle.

the book rates different characteristics of dogs, on a scale of one to five.

i will compare PWD to golden retreiver.
the poodle ratings were very, very close to the PWD (except poodles were higher for ease of training).

my goal was to "soften" traits of the poodle with the golden.

Energy Level and Exercise Requirements:
PWD: 4
Golden: 3

Playfulness, Affection Level, Friendliness toward other pets:
PWD: 4
Golden:5

Friendliness toward dogs, friendliness toward strangers:
PWD: 3
Golden: 5

Watchdog Ability: PWD: 4 Golden: 3
Protection Ability: PWD: 3 Golden: 2
personally, i wanted LESS watchdog and protection nature.

Ease of Training: PWD: 3
Golden: 5

the golden description fit my needs better, and it worked out the way i hoped.

wvasko · 05-07-2008, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pai

Yes... we all know that.

Pai
1. You know there may be somebody viewing my reply that is not as dog knowledgeable as you. I'm going to bet that somewhere out in the world somebody has been given a set of registration papers for their Doodle that are obviously bogus.
2. In my opinion the recognized breed statement the only important compare/contrast feature.

lovemygreys · 05-07-2008, 03:45 PM

I've found very few books are actually good at describing dog breeds. I use the greyhound as my standard when I pick up an 'all breed' dog book b/c I know them better than any other breed - they are usually anywhere to slightly off to horribly wrong about temperament.

Ease of Training is always a sticking point with me. Ease of training for what and by who's standard or method? Any breed of dog that has historically been bred to do independent type work NEEDS to have the intelligence and autonomy to function without a human standing there barking orders. How that translates into the 'pet world' is that these types of breeds may just need a different training approach/motivation.

dog-man · 05-07-2008, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lovemygreys

I've found very few books are actually good at describing dog breeds. I use the greyhound as my standard when I pick up an 'all breed' dog book b/c I know them better than any other breed - they are usually anywhere to slightly off to horribly wrong about temperament.
.

well, you have to start somewhere, and we can't have experience with all breeds as a novice.

i found that by comparing 2 or 3 different books, i got a pretty good picture of a general temperament and tendency.

when i meet a new breed, i look up in my books again, to see if that individual dog fit the description.

Dogstar · 05-07-2008, 03:52 PM

I would say that Porties and Poodles are definitely in the same class as far as intelligence, with labs just a touch lower. I'd rate the lab highest in trainability though. :P Most of the Porties I've met have not been any more energetic than a standard poodle of similar age, and the lack of popularity (and higher percentage of responsible breeders) really seems to have a VERY positive impact on the breed's overall temperament and trainability. LOTS of Porties with titles at both ends, it seems. Almost all the ones I meet at dog shows are breed champions now competing in performance events.

Here's another doodle-lookalike, the Romano Lagotto- Spanish Water Dog. They're another all-purpose family working dog and companion and they're absolutely wonderful. This is a puppy.

I also think it's funny how much Pumi resemble the schnauzer/poodle crosses that are used as illustrations in the designer dogs breed magazines and on websites. They're definitely a LOT more dog than the similar-looking mix, though.

FriendsOfZoe · 05-07-2008, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dog-man

Energy Level and Exercise Requirements:
PWD: 4
Golden: 3

3/5 for a goldens energy level? Ugh.

It really really bothers me when people think that goldens are all like the old ones they've met who eat and sleep all day...no golden puppy is like that, and many aren't even well into adulthood.

I'm glad it worked out for you with Oinest, but I would put goldens and PWDs on a similar level of energy, with poodles probably right up there though perhaps needing a bit less sheer exercise and a bit more mental exercise.

I know a few PWDs from where I used to live. A girl in my building got one just a few months before I got Zoe and he's such a great dog. She is single and works full time, and just takes him to the park to run off-leash before work and goes for a long walk at night--and he is still a puppy!!! I love that dog, he and Zoe were such good friends, and she was the only other person in my building who could relate to having a dog that needed so much exercise. Another one lived nearby that was similarly a great dog. I am not much a fan of poodles myself, but if I were ever to look for a breed with that type of coat ("non-shedding" "hypoallergenic"), I would certainly get a Portie.

That said, B-line, if I were you, I would be glad that people want doodles and not porties...popularity is a curse, so relish your fabulous and relatively unknown buddies!!

dog-man · 05-07-2008, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FriendsOfZoe

3/5 for a goldens energy level? Ugh.

It really really bothers me when people think that goldens are all like the old ones they've met who eat and sleep all day...no golden puppy is like that, and many aren't even well into adulthood.

golden puppies are another story.

Oinest loves activity and adventure, but he has a limit...there are some dogs at the dog parks, like pointers, that have no limit.

we're both ready to call it quits at the same time.

harrise · 05-07-2008, 04:17 PM

*Running in circles with arms flailing about*

I LIKE SLED DOGS! I LIKE SLED DOGS!

Mr Pooch · 05-07-2008, 04:20 PM

Harrisse what about St Bernards.lol,the best!

wvasko · 05-07-2008, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lovemygreys

I've found very few books are actually good at describing dog breeds. I use the greyhound as my standard when I pick up an 'all breed' dog book b/c I know them better than any other breed - they are usually anywhere to slightly off to horribly wrong about temperament.

Ease of Training is always a sticking point with me. Ease of training for what and by who's standard or method? Any breed of dog that has historically been bred to do independent type work NEEDS to have the intelligence and autonomy to function without a human standing there barking orders. How that translates into the 'pet world' is that these types of breeds may just need a different training approach/motivation.

lovemygreys

I've found very few books are actually good at describing dog breeds. I use the greyhound as my standard when I pick up an 'all breed' dog book b/c I know them better than any other breed - they are usually anywhere to slightly off to horribly wrong about temperament.

You are so right it's scary. I have read some of the breed books and if I hadn't known I had that particular breed of dog in front of me, I would not have had a clue.

B-Line · 05-07-2008, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FriendsOfZoe

That said, B-line, if I were you, I would be glad that people want doodles and not porties...popularity is a curse, so relish your fabulous and relatively unknown buddies!!

I 100% agree and am confident, if the PWD was more popular, more people would breed them, including puppy mills and irresponsible breeders. That would probably then lead to the overall quality of the breed, diminishing.

Whereas now, the standards for the breed are so high and maintained by extremely responsible, caring and loving breeders.

The reason I speak with so much passion about them here is because of the misinformation that I believe is emanated by 'some' Doodle breeders and owners.

For example, Dog Man, while I'm sure has the absolute best of intentions, clearly has a view of the PWD that is not fitting. Of course there are always extreme examples and if you put an aggressive, alpha male, PWD in a room with a submissive, lethargic, Golden, you will be able to make the point that PWD's are higher energy, more skittish around strangers, etc.

But truth is, in all my experiences, I have never met a Lab or Standard or Doodle or Golden, that was any less energetic, that was any better with strangers or easier to train. That's just nonsense.

I have consistently been told, by trainers I have worked with, by groomers, by dog sitters, etc. That they have never seen a dog/breed that was so loving, patient, smart, etc. (Yes, my puppy is a little crazy, but ALL puppies are crazy..)

So when I hear Doodle owners talking about these wild, hi-strung, PWD's, I have to say, "HUH" ?? - "What are you talking about?" My dogs live to please me. Yes, they are mischievous and comical, but not in a bad way.

All of the qualities that Doodle owners are looking for a breed are the same qualities that PWD's have. Smart, Hypo-allergenic, easy to train, good for families, etc.

As far as the way some book rates them, 3/5 intelligence, 3/5 ease of training, etc. The writers of those books have clearly never spent 5 minutes with a PWD.

Annamarie · 05-07-2008, 04:47 PM

I've only ever seen one PWD in real life and I assumed it was a doodle lol..

Who knows, way back in their history PWD's may have been doodles or part doodles. It's possible! Really, there's no such thing as a "purebred". Every breed at one point was started or refined by selectively breeding more than one "breed" together.

Laurelin · 05-07-2008, 04:58 PM

I've known labradoodles and a few porties...

TO ME... the biggest difference is that the doodles are bigger. Labradoodles I see are much bigger than standard poodles and labs... we're talking 80-100 lbs many times...

The doodles vary a lot in temperament, but they seem a bit softer than your average PWD.

The guide dog program doodles are very well trained as were my friends' pwds.

PWDs have a much more consistent coat type.

To me PWDs seem more active... just based on the ones I know.

That's about all I've got. Either way, I'm more of a long, feathered coat type of person and a herding dog person so neither dog really is my cup of tea.