[reverend_maynard]

Originally Posted by dog-man

now that we have the AKC, crossing dogs is suddenly supposed to halt?
the breeders in the past did not have AKC type standards in mind.
they wanted a dog that fit a need the best.

You just love blaming everything on the AKC, huh?

To my knowledge, they are not against creating new breeds. They're not going to grant breed status to first generation crosses, but a multi-generational breeding program that produces consistent results and a breed standard can eventually be recognized as a new breed.

The breeders of the past did not take 2 purebreds, mate them, and call it a day. They continued to breed and breed until they got consistent results from each breeding, so that the vast majority of pups would fit the need best. To the best of my knowedge, the Australian Labradoodle is the one doodle that is being handled in this manner. All other doodles, poos, etc. are first generation, crap-shoot, breedings. Do you really expect ANYONE to recognize that as a breed?

[dog-man]

Originally Posted by reverend_maynard

You just love blaming everything on the AKC, huh?

To my knowledge, they are not against creating new breeds. They're not going to grant breed status to first generation crosses, but a multi-generational breeding program that produces consistent results and a breed standard can eventually be recognized as a new breed.

The breeders of the past did not take 2 purebreds, mate them, and call it a day. They continued to breed and breed until they got consistent results from each breeding, so that the vast majority of pups would fit the need best. To the best of my knowedge, the Australian Labradoodle is the one doodle that is being handled in this manner. All other doodles, poos, etc. are first generation, crap-shoot, breedings. Do you really expect ANYONE to recognize that as a breed?

you misunderstood my point (even though i truly don't like the AKC).

i don't expect the AKC to recognize goldendoodles as a breed...and i don't want them too.

what i was reacting to, is the notion that cross-breeding is not legitimate, because it doesn't fulfil the value system of the AKC.

before the formation of kennel clubs, the purpose of creating a new breed was to find a dog that could fill a new niche...a new necessary function.

they were not obsessive about PURE breed, or exact conformation to a standard.

i, for one, don't give a hoot about a dog fulfilling its original, obsolete function.

the new function that i care about, is to be a good family dog.
health and temperament, along with non-shed is important to me.

for those who want to be sure to preserve the original function, working dog breeders maintain that.

that leaves show dog breeders with very little purpose, to my mind, except that the show dog people enjoy it...nothing objectively important about it at all.
so, let them enjoy themselves...just like some people love Civil war parapanelia.
but don't think we all have to share the same priorities.

[DobManiac]

Originally Posted by dog-man

the new function that i care about, is to be a good family dog.
health and temperament, along with non-shed is important to me.

for those who want to be sure to preserve the original function, working dog breeders maintain that.

Ok I have a question.

For you what are the qualities that make a dog breedable? Do feel that there should be any requirements besides a stable temperament and general health? How would you regulate which dogs are chosen to be breed?

Sorry, that was a few questions

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by dog-man

the new function that i care about, is to be a good family dog.
health and temperament, along with non-shed is important to me.

Phenotype is a poor indicator of what the dog does. So unless you have an arena to test the dog's function, the function you seek is simply subjective. And before you ask, the conformation ring isn't just an arena to test phenotype.

for those who want to be sure to preserve the original function, working dog breeders maintain that.

And so what of AKC performance events?

[dog-man]

Originally Posted by DobManiac

Ok I have a question.

For you what are the qualities that make a dog breedable? Do feel that there should be any requirements besides a stable temperament and general health? How would you regulate which dogs are chosen to be breed?

first of all, i have to clarify.

show dog breeders also "create" some excellent family dogs...so, for that, i consider them to be very relevant.
but not because they are coming closer and closer to some standard.

stable temperament and good health are the two main factors i consider important for breeding.

then it is a matter of the market, of which types people want.

there are many useful breeding techniques that experienced breeders use, that are not dependent on maintaining a PURE breed, with exacting standards of conformation.

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

And so what of AKC performance events?

if there are AKC breeders who consider function to be of more importance than form...and they are trying to maintain the skills of "original function", then i consider them to be "working dog" breeders rather than "showdog" breeders.

i believe most people will admit that the dogs who win ribbons for conformation are not the best dogs in the field anymore.

[Willowy]

There may be too much emphasis on conformation in shows, but, honestly, if you don't breed for conformation AT ALL, all the dogs will end up looking the same. You need to have some kind of standard to breed to. Otherwise there will be Labs who look like Danes, and Poodles that look like Westies, or whatever.

[Love's_Sophie]

Ugghhh...yet another doodle thread...

It's a mutt...the PWD is not...nough said...

As far as energy, EVERY single 'doodle mutt' I have met has had energy that would make me as a Border owner, go balistic...

[DobManiac]

Originally Posted by dog-man

first of all, i have to clarify.

show dog breeders also "create" some excellent family dogs...so, for that, i consider them to be very relevant.
but not because they are coming closer and closer to some standard.

stable temperament and good health are the two main factors i consider important for breeding.

then it is a matter of the market, of which types people want.

there are many useful breeding techniques that experienced breeders use, that are not dependent on maintaining a PURE breed, with exacting standards of conformation.

My problem with breeding in this manner is that too many dogs fit the bill. I think it's a little hypocritical of you to suggest that maintaining a pure breed isn't important considering the amount of research you put into individual breed traits. You clearly had a niche that only a dog of a certain temperament could fill.

So how would you keep the integrity of the breed intact without using conformation as one of your requirements? Don't you worry that if we follow your plan, that in ten years the golden retriever will no longer even resemble what the golden is supposed to be?

Family dogs come in many shapes and sizes. I would have thought you of all people would realize that.

[Motebi]

This may be a little bit OT now, but this is, how breeding is regulated in Germany:



Following are some requirements:

A breeder has to be a member of a breed club/registry and he/she has to register his/her kennel with them. A proposed kennel name is published in and in the breed register. A breeder is allocated a code, which will be used for tattooing puppies.

Both parents, dam and sire, of the prospective litter must meet breeding eligibility criteria: they must have a conformation rating of at least Sehr Gut ("Very Good") at the age of at least 9 months, they have to be at least 15 month old at the time of breeding and they have to be free of PRA (Progressive Retinal Atrophy) and cataracts (A special eye exam is required prior to the first breeding and then every two years up to age of 7).

If parents are not registered with the breed club/registry a special authorization for breeding is required from the club/registry prior to mating.

A certificate of mating has to be completed.

A breeder has to report a litter to a breed warden within 8 days of whelping. He/She then will inspect the litter when the puppies are between 8 and 12 weeks of age. He/she will also tattoo the puppies at the same time.

Mostly, the parents of the litters also have tests to show their ability to perform the tasks that are asked from the breed. (i.e. Hunting tests, tracking titles, retrieves.....etc.etc.) Breeders are very keen on breeding their bitches only to males that have proven themselves in their "field of expertise".

Just a small interlude to show how it's done somewhere else.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by dog-man

i believe most people will admit that the dogs who win ribbons for conformation are not the best dogs in the field anymore.

If we're going to be subjective, I believe most people will admit to knowing the difference. But I don't see how your "function" is any different than what the AKC does in the conformation ring, except minus the peer review and ribbons.

[Love's_Sophie]

Originally Posted by dog-man

f there are AKC breeders who consider function to be of more importance than form...and they are trying to maintain the skills of "original function", then i consider them to be "working dog" breeders rather than "showdog" breeders.

i believe most people will admit that the dogs who win ribbons for conformation are not the best dogs in the field anymore.

Ummm...that is not very true...I know several different breeders of several different breeds; from Dachshunds, Duck Tolling Retrievers, to Labradors, and Golden Retrievers...and EVERY single one of them breeds for usable dogs; NOT just pretty faces for the showring...These dogs title in their hunting trials, as well as everything from obedience, to agility, and utility...I don't consider these 'working dog breeders'; they are breeders who are just breeding for the actual breed standard set in their individual descriptions. The dogs win in the showring too...imagine that.

And it's form follows function, anyway...if the dog is improperly put together, he is not going to do well in the showring, and he certainly is not going to stand up long in the field; the body HAS to be well conformed. It doesn't matter what sort of dog we are talking about. My BC mix has crappy hips...so she is limited in somethings; like I will never be able to really compete with her in agility like I had hoped...her form follows in the functions she can do.

Plus, when you talk about 'working dog standard'...umm...well, that implies to me an insanely energetic, too scraggly looking Golden (or whatever)...NOT the actual breed standard. There is no 'working dog standard' for each breed only the actual breed standards; it's breeders who decide, well, my dog will only do well in the field, because he doesn't fit the actual standard, that 'creates' that sort of definition.

[Motebi]

As far as dachshunds go, that's admirable ! It's really sad to see where the American dachshund is heading. 99% of them are totally useless as hunting dogs. Partially, because they are just too crippled to run and jump. Lack of prey drive aside.

[Love's_Sophie]

Originally Posted by Motebi

As far as dachshunds go, that's admirable ! It's really sad to see where the American dachshund is heading. 99% of them are totally useless as hunting dogs. Partially, because they are just too crippled to run and jump. Lack of prey drive aside.

Yeah...her dogs are pretty amazing...I have watched her practice with them a time or two in her tunnel system (as I used to help her with her kennel), and the dogs were so quick and so precise; they definitely know their job and loved it! And then when they get in the confo or obedience ring, they know their job there too! She has a lot of imported dogs too; because she doesn't like alot of the 'American' bloodlines either, and the direction they have headed.

[Motebi]

That's great ! Is she by any chance a member of the NATC ? If not, you may want to point that out to her.

[Love's_Sophie]

I believe she is...I haven't talked to her in a while...but I am pretty sure she is...she's been involved with Doxies and trialing them for..well...many many years

[Alpha]

I saw Portugues Water Dog in the title thread...

We have a breeder at school as well as one client with two, not from the same breeder.

I would say size is the biggest difference between the two PHYSICALLY! lol

Most lab/golden doodles I've seen are pretty darned big, over 24", weighing in at around 80lbs.

All of the PWD's at school, are under 23" and weigh around 40lbs I'd say. Maybe less?

Also energy wise, from the doodles and PWD's I've come into contact with, I would use the word "rangy" to describe the doodles. And the PWD's seem to be very laid back.

[dog-man]

Originally Posted by DobManiac

My problem with breeding in this manner is that too many dogs fit the bill. I think it's a little hypocritical of you to suggest that maintaining a pure breed isn't important considering the amount of research you put into individual breed traits. You clearly had a niche that only a dog of a certain temperament could fill.
.

you can maintain breed traits without it having to be a PURE breed.

you can introduce something here and there, to make some changes, and still keep the basics you want.
that is what breeding in the 18th century was all about.
and that is what experienced breeders can still do.

also, like a border collie, there could be a large variety in phenotype, but still all sharing the border collie abilities and personality.

yes, i wanted a dog with the golden traits.

so, when i say i want a dog with a good temperament, it doesn't mean i want some generic temperament.

personally, i am happy with a well-bred goldendoodle...i can take my chances with the result, because i think both breeds have such good traits.

however, if someone needs more of a "guarantee", they can go to a breeder who stresses more standard results.

but this concept of standard can be taken to an obsessive extreme as well.

it is the extreme measures of conformation that i am against...not the idea of maintaining breed traits, or even some of the unique phenotype beauty of each breed.

[B-Line]

Alpha,

My 12 yr. old PWD weighs in, at or near, 55-60lbs. (Female)
I am guessing, based on the size of our puppies mom, the little one will probably be near the same weight, 55lbs.

In my experience, that seems to be the size of the females, despite what the books say, 35lb-50lb females.

They are medium sized, but at the top of the "medium sized" scale.

At least, that's been my experience.

[Alpha]

Well I've never put them on the scale or asked how much they weighed.

I guess the reason my guess is so light because in comparison to my dog that's around the same height and weighs 65lbs they look pretty tiny. Completely different builds though so it can be deceiving.

This is one of the breeder's dog, she is a Ch.

[MollyDoggie]

Anyone ever lion cut a doodle?