[dog-man]

Originally Posted by B-Line

As far as the way some book rates them, 3/5 intelligence, 3/5 ease of training, etc. The writers of those books have clearly never spent 5 minutes with a PWD.

the book i was quoting from is:
Encyclopedia of Dog Breeds, by D. Caroline Coile, Phd.

there was another book i used: The right dog for you, by Tortora.
but the book is from the early 1980's, and PWD was not in the book.
it seems they were recognized in 1984.
Tortora was very good at pointing out more potential problems than Coile did.

[B-Line]

Originally Posted by Annamarie

Who knows, way back in their history PWD's may have been doodles or part doodles. It's possible! Really, there's no such thing as a "purebred". Every breed at one point was started or refined by selectively breeding more than one "breed" together.

That is true. But the point I've been trying to make is,
The ideal Doodle, with few exceptions (coloring, etc.) has almost the exact same characteristics of the PWD.
Essentially, trying to invent a breed that already exists, that already has proven standards, responsible breeders, etc.

[Laurelin]

Originally Posted by B-Line

That is true. But the point I've been trying to make is,
The ideal Doodle, with few exceptions (coloring, etc.) has almost the exact same characteristics of the PWD.
Essentially, trying to invent a breed that already exists, that already has proven standards, responsible breeders, etc.

This is a question I proposed on another forum...

How different does a breed need to be in order to be acceptable? There are tons of breeds that are very similar and perform similar jobs. Which ones are okay and which are just 'repeats'?

To the people that have these breeds, no other will do. Differences seem small from the outside, but owning one of these dogs, you'll probably much prefer your breed to another.

[melgrj7]

Haha, thats funny as the first few poodle mixes I saw, I assumed were PWDs. I even asked them about their PWDs as I had only seen two before in our area, and then I was like wow they got popular all of a sudden. The couple of PWDs I know are a lot less crazy than the several poodle mixes that I know. Either way, I am not drawn to that look of dog, I like herding dogs and bully breeds

Originally Posted by Annamarie

I've only ever seen one PWD in real life and I assumed it was a doodle lol..

[FriendsOfZoe]

Originally Posted by Laurelin

This is a question I proposed on another forum...

How different does a breed need to be in order to be acceptable? There are tons of breeds that are very similar and perform similar jobs. Which ones are okay and which are just 'repeats'?

To the people that have these breeds, no other will do. Differences seem small from the outside, but owning one of these dogs, you'll probably much prefer your breed to another.

Good point. Like the people who think that GOLDENS like ZOE are LABS and if you correct them, just believe that they're basically the same!!

That said, labs are growing on me over time, but still, I hate the insinuation that goldens are labs with longer fur.

[dog-man]

Originally Posted by B-Line

That is true. But the point I've been trying to make is,
The ideal Doodle, with few exceptions (coloring, etc.) has almost the exact same characteristics of the PWD.
Essentially, trying to invent a breed that already exists, that already has proven standards, responsible breeders, etc.

after the improvement of gun accuracy, there was a huge movement of mixing pointers, retrievers and spaniels, to create the ideal bird dog.

however, there were different terrains and different prey, that demanded subtle differences.

to many people, they couldn't see the differences.

but for those who had specific needs, the "subtle" differences were huge.

now that we have the AKC, crossing dogs is suddenly supposed to halt?
the breeders in the past did not have AKC type standards in mind.
they wanted a dog that fit a need the best.

[B-Line]

Dog Man,

It has nothing to do with the AKC..

Let me put it another way. If you want a PWD, in my experience, you need to prove, with applications, home visits when possible, etc. That you are going to raise the pup to a certain standard.

The breeders don't just give these dogs to anyone with a wallet. They want to place their pups in a great home.

- On the Australian Labradoodle website I just visited, on the front page, there is a request that people stop auctioning their dogs.
-- So, highest bidder wins !

It's not the AKC, it's the difference between breeders who do it for money and breeders who do it for the love of the breed.

Am I making sense?

B

From the Australian Labradoodle Website: (This is highlighting the problem)

"NOTICE:

The Australian Labradoodle Club of America is strongly against any or all auctions of breeding dogs or pets. We are resolved as an organization to protect the Australian Labradoodle, and cannot sit quietly as dogs are being sold off to the highest bidder, the only criteria being a checkbook.

We are committed to protecting the health and well-being of the Australian Labradoodle in America and to always strive for excellence in our breeding practices in order to maintain and protect the integrity of the breed.

Recent auctions and the blatant disregard for the future living conditions of the dogs involved runs counter to the principles and foundation of the Australian Labradoodle Club of America. Our code of ethics requires that all breeder members agree to breed responsibly and ethically. All members are required to health test their dogs prior to breeding. At a bare minimum, hips and eyes must be tested. However, dogs on recent auction lists have been bred without first testing for any genetic issues and problems. These dogs are being bred haphazhardly and without regard to pedigree, health issues or quality of the breeding stock."

[dog-man]

Originally Posted by B-Line

Am I making sense?

."

not really.

my point is that people have different tastes in dogs.

a PWD might be perfect for you.

a PWD might be good for me, but i'm not sure it would be perfect.

you might not appreciate the extra subtle features i am looking for.

there is no reason to believe that the breeds that exist already, fit every need.

the history of breeding dogs is the history of crossing dogs, to get closer to a new need.
dogs as family members rather than workers is a major change.
it is inevitable that new crosses are going to become popular.

the standards by which a breeder might be considered responsible is not an objective, obvious concept.

it is always important to have good breeders and educated consumers.
but the details of how that is EXACTLY defined..that is where we may part company.

[kelliope]

I don't know about anyone else, but I am really getting sold on PWD! I had read some really negative information on them from a breed club (I know they try to discourage casual purchasers, but this was BAD!) and now having read this thread and looked online again, they seem like good dogs!

[MarleysGirl]

B Line, thank you for starting this thread. I had never heard of a PWD untill today. Could you post some more pics of your dog on the picture forum?

[B-Line]

Originally Posted by kelliope

I had read some really negative information on them from a breed club (I know they try to discourage casual purchasers, but this was BAD!) and now having read this thread and looked online again, they seem like good dogs!

Kelliope,

You hit the nail on the head. Many of the breeders, really do try hard to discourage casual purchasers. My breeder who had pups available in late December, wouldn't let any of her pups go until after New Years. She was trying very hard to discourage CHRISTMAS PUPPIES.

I even had a breeder who turned me down for a pup and I have a PWD.
(She eventually changed her mind, but I already went in a different direction.)

I'm happy to share more pictures and will post them in the pictures forum. But here is an appetizer:

Maggie, black and white, is a 6 month old, puppy.
Nikita, all black, is 12 yrs old.

[dog-man]

nice dogs.

helps that you have a pool.

[mydogspot]

Originally Posted by Motebi

PWDs are a working breed, bred for a purpose. Doodles aren't. They are companion dogs and that's it.

Having said that, I wonder how many underworked PWDs are out there........

So true!

Strange though...all but a few of the pups that my Labradoodle breeder put on the ground are WORKING in therapy. That's what they were bred for.

Bred for a purpose, that statement just doesn't hold any water anymore. Most dogs that I meet are simply ADORED family pets, regardless of breed.

[B-Line]

[kelliope]

I am wondering if a PWD would be a good choice for me if I were to ever get another dog?

Here is a little about me:

I've had dogs my whole life though we lived on an farm and did no formal training. The dogs seemed to train themselves!

I now have 2 small Chi's. Pretty active dogs that do go hiking, etc.

I am very involved in equestrian activities and horse shows and want a dog that could accompany me to these types of events.

I want an active dog that enjoys hiking, etc., but is still calm enough to be in the house and sleep in my bedroom (if not in the bed!)

I have no children of my own, but I have visiting children so I need a dog good with kids/visitors.

I do NOT need a guard-type dog. I'd rather a really friendly, happy-go-lucky type.

I need a dog that is absolutely NOT dog-aggressive or even small animal aggressive (i.e. cats) or could be trained to ignore smaller animals (we have done this with everything from our Rottie to our Doxie/Terrier mix).

We have a houseboat and spend a good deal of the summer there so a swimming dog would be great - even my little Chi swims!

So, do I seem like a good candidate for a PWD in the future?

B-LINE, your dogs are ADORABLE!!!!!!!!!!

[B-Line]

Originally Posted by dog-man

nice dogs.

helps that you have a pool.

Thanks Dog Man,

I'm fond of yours as well

Though, I don't have a pool. My brother does. And my favorite thing to do in the world is spend all weekend swimming with them. Hopefully my next house will have a pool though.

Many PWD owners take their dogs to lakes, or friends pools, or ponds even.

And FYI, Dog Man,
Yes, the Portuguese Water Dog does have the name "Water" in it. But don't think, for even a second, that a Standard Poodle and a Golden Retriever aren't also, equally considered, "DOGS OF WATER". Because they are !!!

And you don't need to take a PWD swimming any more than you need to take a greyhound to the bus stop.

Kellipe,

The PWD is not a breed for everyone. But I see nothing in your description that would lead me to believe, you wouldn't make a great parent for a PWD and that you wouldn't be extraordinarily happy with the breed.

The only thing that sticks out a little, is these dogs need training. Not because they are wild, rather because they yearn for it.

They want you to teach them how to work, how to behave, etc. And yes, they will be mischievous. But in my experience, they are much happier dogs with a firm owner. And those people who have crazy PWD's, imho, haven't done their jobs as parents and have even ignored their dogs requests to train them properly.

My puppy comes RUNNING over to me at full speed when she knows it's training time. The biggest problem I have, is not knowing what else to train her to do. She already, sits, speaks, rolls over, gives paw, high five, stays, fetch and puts the ball in my hand. - I now need to find more complicated things for her to do..

I'm happy to discuss with you, more, at length, if you want to talk via email..

[poodleholic]

PWDs are wonderful dogs, and have had the pleasure of knowing one first hand. Smart, great temperament, and what sweet lovebuckets! LOL

I would say that Porties and Poodles are definitely in the same class as far as intelligence, with labs just a touch lower. I'd rate the lab highest in trainability though.

I've never worked with a lab from puppyhood, so can't really say that labs are easier to train than Poodles, or vice versa. I can say that Standard Poodles are so smart that training them is like cheating in some way! They catch on very quickly, and once learned, they don't forget.

[lovemygreys]

Originally Posted by dog-man

well, you have to start somewhere, and we can't have experience with all breeds as a novice.

i found that by comparing 2 or 3 different books, i got a pretty good picture of a general temperament and tendency.

when i meet a new breed, i look up in my books again, to see if that individual dog fit the description.

I've found that talking to breed-specific rescues and serious breeders are the best ways to learn about a breed. Basically, people who have experience with a LOT of individuals within that breed and aren't interested in "selling" the breed to anyone it's not a great match for (meaning, they're more likely to give you the "good" and "bad" aspects). Pet owners can also be a good resource, though their experience is usually more limited - often to only their own individual dogs. When I've picked up 2-3+ "all breed" books and none of them describe the greyhound accurately, there's no way I can trust their evaluation of other breeds - even when considered together.

[Dogstar]

Originally Posted by poodleholic

PWDs are wonderful dogs, and have had the pleasure of knowing one first hand. Smart, great temperament, and what sweet lovebuckets! LOL




I've never worked with a lab from puppyhood, so can't really say that labs are easier to train than Poodles, or vice versa. I can say that Standard Poodles are so smart that training them is like cheating in some way! They catch on very quickly, and once learned, they don't forget.

Very much so, and that's why I'd rate their 'trainability' a touch lower- they seem to fare poorly with trainers who do a lot of repetition or who aren't smarter than their dogs. (And I'm pretty sure that poodles- especially spoos- are smarter than quite a few people I know. :P)

[Laurelin]

Originally Posted by lovemygreys

I've found that talking to breed-specific rescues and serious breeders are the best ways to learn about a breed. Basically, people who have experience with a LOT of individuals within that breed and aren't interested in "selling" the breed to anyone it's not a great match for (meaning, they're more likely to give you the "good" and "bad" aspects). Pet owners can also be a good resource, though their experience is usually more limited - often to only their own individual dogs. When I've picked up 2-3+ "all breed" books and none of them describe the greyhound accurately, there's no way I can trust their evaluation of other breeds - even when considered together.

Oh I agree. Though if you find a completely obsessed pet owner like me, I've known hundreds of papillons (literally).

I feel for the people who get papillons based on all breed books. They always sound much more reserved and much more like lap dogs than they really typically are.