[dog-man]

Originally Posted by JDub

No, actually its the point where we determine we're all saying the same thing, but you continue to argue. A mutt is a mixed breed. Your doodle is a mixed breed. But in your head, the quacking of a duck, and the looks of a duck, obviously mean its not a duck. That right there is a special kind of stupid.

no, that is not so.

if all anyone means when they say the word "mutt" is that it is a mixed breed, then you would be correct.

however, very often, what people mean here, directly or covertly, is to imply an inferior stock.
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btw, if you go to the beginning of the thread, B-line clearly was asking for a polite but strong debate, based on facts...and that is what i gave him.

if i give someone a rude response, check the post i am responding to, and you will usually see that i am responding in kind.

i don't want to prolong this issue, but i am tired of certain double standards of politeness and rudeness...

i am not referring to you, JDUB...i kinda like you and your approach.

[Curbside Prophet]

Let's see if I can get this thread back to comparisons between PWD's and "doodles".

From what I can ascertain just from this thread, there are two different views of what a "doodle" is, and those opposing views are from the "doodle" owners. Seems a bit ironic, no?

There doesn't seem to be a questions as to what a PWD is.

So if we're comparing and we want the clearest definition of what kind of dog we're buying, sounds like the PWD would be a better choice to start with.

[JDub]

No worries dog-man....but for the record, at least on this thread, I dont recall seeing any discussions or assertions of doodles being of inferior stock. What was called into question was breeding habits...which could be bad for any breed, but for purebreeds there would at least be discernable standards by which the dogs would be measured.

But yes, I've seen a few doodle threads on here that seem to all go downhill pretty quickly.

And lastly, as I've mentioned a few times....I got thiiiiiiiiis close to buying a Doodle, but ended up changing my mind at the last minute simply because of ther lack of absolute certainty on what we'd get. No doubt the personality would be great....but there was no assurance on the size of the dog, nor on the shedding issue. In the end, we knew we wanted, or needed for our sanity, a 50 pound or less dog that absolutely did not shed. Our Golden shed like crazy, and as such didnt have access to certain rooms, such as the nursery when our kids arrived. So we needed the no-shed certainty...and the PWD had fully intrigued me.

I am now 8 days away from picking up my PWD puppy....so I'll post frequent updates over the next year or so to highlight differences between the Golden that I had for 12 years.

Ok....big group hug....koom-by-ah.... have a good weekend all. I'm off to continue looking for that monkey/football video.

[dog-man]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

Let's see if I can get this thread back to comparisons between PWD's and "doodles".

From what I can ascertain just from this thread, there are two different views of what a "doodle" is, and those opposing views are from the "doodle" owners. Seems a bit ironic, no?

There doesn't seem to be a questions as to what a PWD is.

So if we're comparing and we want the clearest definition of what kind of dog we're buying, sounds like the PWD would be a better choice to start with.

brilliant.

did it ever occur to you that the two dogs may be similar, but not identical?

and therefore, the better choice depends on the subjective needs of the person choosing.

Originally Posted by JDub

And lastly, as I've mentioned a few times....I got thiiiiiiiiis close to buying a Doodle, but ended up changing my mind at the last minute simply because of ther lack of absolute certainty on what we'd get. No doubt the personality would be great....but there was no assurance on the size of the dog, nor on the shedding issue. In the end, we knew we wanted, or needed for our sanity, a 50 pound or less dog that absolutely did not shed. Our Golden shed like crazy, and as such didnt have access to certain rooms, such as the nursery when our kids arrived. So we needed the no-shed certainty...and the PWD had fully intrigued me.

.

for what it's worth, i think you made the right decision.

now, you need some good luck.

so...i wish you good luck.

[reverend_maynard]

Originally Posted by dog-man

hey pal, you said i made up the definition...and it turns out there are different definitions, just as i said...

the one promulgated by the morons who believe in AKC closed-book breeding methods...and one for people with a more open mind of what is best for dog health...

Just because their are other definitions does not exclude the fact that doodles fit most of the valid definitions of mutt. You said doodles were not mutts because they don't fit a few of the definitions of mutt. That's like saying a Granny Smith is not an apple because the definition of apple is "a green or red fruit." It's not red, but it's still an apple.

Deliberately discarding certain definitions because they don't fit what you want the word to mean is the height of intellectual dishonesty. Or is it stupidity?

Originally Posted by dog-man

for my sources, i already posted a website with many knowledgeable folk on the issue.

where's your sources on the genetic issues?

Sources on genetics have what to do with doodles being mutts?

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by dog-man

did it ever occur to you that the two dogs may be similar, but not identical?

and therefore, the better choice depends on the subjective needs of the person choosing.

A clear definition of what the dog is should not be subjective. Remember form follows function, not the other way around. The health benefits you argue are subjective of the breeder, not what the dog is. And we're comparing dogs, right? Not breeders.

Originally Posted by reverend_maynard

Sources on genetics have what to do with doodles being mutts?

He wants to make the argument that "doodle" breeders are some how defying the laws of common genetics more so than purebred breeders. I think Hitler tried to make the same argument...thank goodness the allied forces proved Hitler wrong.

[Quincy]

Originally Posted by B-Line

One last point, even though I should just lay it to rest...

-- Why try to invent a breed, where a breed already exists that fits the almost exact same specifications? It's like trying to re-invent the German Shepard, or the Boxer, or the Beagle, or the Pug....

Do you know of any breeders of those breeds who are using people who are allergic to dogs to assist them in determining which dogs to breed with, plus also to the function of Guide/Service dogs such as what many Guide/Service Dog Organisations do around the world.
.

[B-Line]

Originally Posted by Quincy

Do you know of any breeders of those breeds who are using people who are allergic to dogs to assist them in determining which dogs to breed with, plus also to the function of Guide/Service dogs such as what many Guide/Service Dog Organisations do around the world.
.

No, nope, sorry, can't say that I do..

The only thing PWD's are good for is jumping in the pool.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Quincy

Do you know of any breeders of those breeds who are using people who are allergic to dogs to assist them in determining which dogs to breed with, plus also to the function of Guide/Service dogs such as what many Guide/Service Dog Organisations do around the world.
.

What would prevent a PWD breeder from doing the same?

[Quincy]

Originally Posted by B-Line

No, nope, sorry, can't say that I do..

The only thing PWD's are good for is jumping in the pool.

On this webpage there are breeders who do, and some of the people you see in the photo are allergic to dogs, and my wife is in one of the photos:-
http://www.alpsdoodles.org/pages/malibushow06.htm

Yes my wife became allergic to dogs and her allergy is gradually increasing in severity. Because of this we no longer can have a Cavalier at our home, nor any other dog she is allergic too, yet we can have our Quincy as she is not allergic to him and including his relatives. Well it's great to see her able to go to a dog show as seen via that link.

My Quincy also loves to dive into pools. Great to have a Guide/Service Dog who loves water as they can function well in situations like being caught out in pouring rain.
.

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

What would prevent a PWD breeder from doing the same?

I think PWD breeders could do the same, but I don't know of any does anyone.
.

[dog-man]

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

A clear definition of what the dog is should not be subjective. Remember form follows function, not the other way around. The health benefits you argue are subjective of the breeder, not what the dog is. And we're comparing dogs, right? Not breeders.
.

does anyone know what in the world you are saying?

by the way, my response to you, was to your statement regarding the BETTER CHOICE of what dog to get...that has to do with the OWNER.
here are your words:
So if we're comparing and we want the clearest definition of what kind of dog we're buying, sounds like the PWD would be a better choice to start with.

therefore, the better CHOICE has to do with the subjective needs of the buyer.

if someone has a main priority that the dog should be non-shed, then a PWD would probably make more sense, since the non-shed is already consistent.

however, i wanted certain temperament traits as my most important priority, and my judgement was that a goldendoodle was the best way to get those traits.

that was a judgement call...not a declaration of fact.

since i got the temperament i was looking for (and non-shed also), then i can feel confident that my CHOICE, based on my subjective needs was done well.

even if it was maybe possible to accomplish my needs with another choice.

get out of your "intellectual" thinking, and realize that people have to make choices of what is BEST for them...not some ethereal objective truth.

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

He wants to make the argument that "doodle" breeders are some how defying the laws of common genetics more so than purebred breeders. I think Hitler tried to make the same argument...thank goodness the allied forces proved Hitler wrong.

again, what in the world are you saying?

does anyone get it?

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by dog-man

by the way, my response to you, was to your statement regarding the BETTER CHOICE of what dog to get...that has to do with the OWNER.
here are your words:
So if we're comparing and we want the clearest definition of what kind of dog we're buying, sounds like the PWD would be a better choice to start with.

therefore, the better CHOICE has to do with the subjective needs of the buyer.

And I'm comparing PWD's to "doodles" in what the dog *IS*. As usual, you have your own agenda. We're not comparing one owners "needs" to yours. My point, the one you're trying to deflect, is that the PWD is a PWD and the choice is we want a dog that *IS* what it's suppose to be. Not, we want a PWD and a "doodle" worked for dog-man so that's an option too. Again (maybe it's like pennies in a piggy bank and one day the bank will be full), we shouldn't enter into a contract with a breeder unless we know what the dog *IS*...you're hoping that your decisions lead you to a good dog, but it's not surprising that Oinest exceeded your limitations. I agree however that good decisions will lead you to a good dog, but if I know what the dog *IS* I'm increasing my chances in what the dog *IS*. I honestly don't care how you seek to validate your judgment. It doesn't help anyone in how to consider buying a dog.

however, i wanted certain temperament traits as my most important priority, and my judgement was that a goldendoodle was the best way to get those traits.

that was a judgement call...not a declaration of fact.

One day you'll understand that I'm not interested in your judgment, nor write from a vantage considering your ability to judge in spite of my sarcasm that you don't get.

since i got the temperament i was looking for (and non-shed also), then i can feel confident that my CHOICE, based on my subjective needs was done well.

This is Dogforums.com, not dog-man'sforums.com. Your subjective needs do not even begin to scrape the surface for what a prospective buyer needs to consider about the dog they are buying. So no one cares about your subjectivity.

get out of your "intellectual" thinking, and realize that people have to make choices of what is BEST for them...not some ethereal objective truth.

So using one's intellect is not within reason? Or is this an attempt to satisfy your egocentric "needs"?

again, what in the world are you saying?

does anyone get it?

It's a math problem. You may even need your counting toes for this one.

[dog-man]

i'm finished responding to you.

half the time you are unintelligible...the other half evasive.

occassionally, you have something interesting to say, which fools me into thinking a conversation would be worth it.

good luck.

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by Quincy

I think PWD breeders could do the same, but I don't know of any does anyone.
.

Seems like if that's something they wanted to do they could easily. It would certainly make it easier for the consumer since the breed is already recognized. But it makes sense that if your specific needs were satisfied by the emerging Australian Labradoodle, and not the PWD, you would make that choice.

Originally Posted by dog-man

i'm finished responding to you.

Do you promise?

[Xeph]

half the time you are unintelligible...the other half evasive.

POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK!! POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK!!!

*squeals, giggles, and runs off to frolic with her Shepherds*

[wvasko]

Originally Posted by Xeph

POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK!! POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK!!!

*squeals, giggles, and runs off to frolic with her Shepherds*

I got to side with the Kettle on this, the Pot is a one horse & pony show.

dogman
A mutt is a mutt, it is a mixed breed dog no more, no less. You are not going to be in control of what individuals think when they hear the word mutt. Sorry, I got carried away as I try to stay out of this stuff.

[ACampbell]

OMG, I thought this thread was done and over with...like a page and a half ago...how silly of me, I guess the horse wasn't dead enough so some folks figured beating it some more might help.

Anyway, I agree with Curbside...and as for Dog-mans comment about him being evasive and or unintelligible...I don't think that's true. Some of CP's responses are written at more than a 5th grade reading level, but, they have a point...even if it's buried in big words lol
Now, go outside, play with your Doodle or PWD - or whatever...(just leave my pitbulls alone hehe) it's nice weather here in NY, no excuse Dog-man!

[Curbside Prophet]

Originally Posted by ACampbell

Some of CP's responses are written at more than a 5th grade reading level, but, they have a point...even if it's buried in big words lol

Two of my favorite people Richard Dawkins and Neil deGrasse Tyson speak to your point and I think Dawkins' response is eloquent, LOL.

YouTube Video

[ACampbell]

LMFAO...priceless.
I don't see a problem with what you write, I understand it perfectly (then again being an English major doesn't hurt either) maybe you need a crash course in writing Army Training manuals...to help with some people that don't quite get all of it. They are written to a 5th grade reading level, but still don't explain a darn thing when you read them...similar to electronics manuals

[dog-man]

Originally Posted by wvasko

dogman
A mutt is a mutt, it is a mixed breed dog no more, no less. You are not going to be in control of what individuals think when they hear the word mutt. .

the point is not to control people's minds...it is to OPEN people's minds to alternative priorities in dog-breeding.

the concept of PUREbreed is fairly new...before the AKC, the priority in quality breeding was to develop a consistency in work abilities...cross-breeding was rampant among the better breeders.

i was offering a different definition of mutt/mongrel (which is in the dictionary) and is consistent with the history of dog breeding.

i was not saying that the AKC definition of mutt does not exist.

the word "mutt" itself is a perjorative term...it started as a slang "muttonhead".

the central issue is whether a cross-breed is by definition inferior to a pure breed.
the use of the word "mutt" to an intentional crossbreed is merely the prejudice of those who advocate an AKC philosophy on quality dog-breeding.

i have often referenced the website which has many articles, that are critical of the AKC approach. www.canine-genetics.com
even if some people read the articles, no one tries to debate the content.

all i hear, is that there must be another side...well, what is it?