[JDub]

*jumps out of the shadows*


Wavy Coat's Suck!!!


*runs away giggling*

[Quincy]

Originally Posted by B-Line

Dog Man, Wikipedia lists the temperament of a Doodle as such:

Appearance and Temperament
The Labradoodle as a dog breed is still developing, and does not yet breed true, i.e. the puppies do not have consistently predictable characteristics. While many Labradoodles display desired traits, their appearance and behavioral characteristics remain, from a breeding standpoint, unpredictable.
As such, Labradoodles' hair can be anywhere from wiry to soft, and may be straight, wavy, or curly. Some Labradoodles do shed, although the coat usually sheds less and has less dog odor than that of a Labrador Retriever. The color range includes white, cream, gold, apricot, red, brown and black, and most of the other colors seen in Poodles.
[edit]

That [edit] at the bottom of what you posted is rather interesting. Maybe you or anyone else might like to edit some information about Labradoodles on Wikipedia. If so then use this link and then click on where you see [edit]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labradoodle
.

Originally Posted by B-Line

Quincy,
You make some very valid points.

Do I
.

Originally Posted by B-Line

But while there is absolutely nothing to prevent any Doodle breeder from calling themselves an Australian Doodle breeder, for the time being, I have to stick by my argument that yes, they are mutt's. (p.s. - I love mutt's.)

Yes there is nothing anyone can do about someone who crosses a Poodle with a Labrador and calling it an Australian Labradoodle, this may similarly apply if someone crosses a Rottweiler, Giant Schnauzer, Airedale and Newfoundland where they may call it a Black Russian Terrier and pass it off as something as on this link:-
http://www.akc.org/breeds/black_russian_terrier/

By the way, you still did not answer one of my questions, but no worries. In the link above to the Black Russian Terrier, where it took many generations of breed development to develop that breed, during that time they were called the Black Russian Terrier, and yes before breed recognised by the AKC and even before breed recognised by other Registries. The same is occuring with the Australian Labradoodle where they are a developing breed, but they are experiencing the effects of heaps of puppy millers and backyarders cashing in and where heaps of assorted doodles came onto the scene, but with the Black Russian Terrier this did not happen as they were not a popular public demand so puppy millers and backyarders were not interested in them. You keep referring to my dog as a mutt and I wonder what you would call the Black Russian Terrier during all those many generations where they were being breed developed.

I have some friends who have cross bred dogs and I don't call their dogs mutts. I feel the word has derogatory meaning, say like if you called somone a mutt then that's calling that someone a stupid or foolish person; a simpleton a dolt, a mongrel, and an inferior dog or one of mixed breed, but where the one of mixed breed has the same meaning as applied to persons such as stupid or foolish. Some may say the mutt and add words of praise fondness and affection, some dog owners may say they are very proud of their mutt and love them dearly. I prefer not to call someones dog a mutt, and I don't like it if others call my dog a mutt not even if they pad it with nice lovely meaning words. Well I'll leave it up to people to read their dictionaries and decide if they choose to use mutt or not, and those that don't have dictionaries well here is a link to one:-
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=mutt
.

Originally Posted by B-Line

I do hope they are one day recognized by the AKC because it is my opinion, that doing so, will vastly prevent some of the unethical breeding that is currently being done, for example, the dog auctions.

I've been in the breeding showing scene for quite some years, and I know of breeding that I would call unethical breeding by pure breed breeders. I've heard of things like auctions, say like where a breeder unexpectedly died and there was no will, some breeders wanted the champion breeding dogs still kept in the gene pool, there was dissagrements between breeders as to who would actually get the champion breeding dogs and how they would go about it, some even suggested spay neutering them all and finding good pet owners but others dissagreed. I've also heard of where a breeder suddenly retired due to personal reasons and who knows just maybe sudden medical reasons, where a silent auction happened and the only bidders allowed were those who were given numbers by the breeder where I feel a vetting process may have occurred, and I feel bidders for breeding dogs may have been breeders who previously bought breeding dogs or used stud services from that breeder, that breeder did mention "I will always be available to support and advice breeders as they carry my dreams on into the future for me", and where that to me does not sound like they wanted their breeding dogs to go to puppy millers or backyard breeders. Now what's these dog auctions that you are referring to and maybe you can tell us all the details.
.

Originally Posted by B-Line

I also think that having a breed become AKC recognized will then put those breeders in a situation where they will have to show their dogs, confirm their dogs, and establish a reliable standard for how the dogs will be bred and which dogs should not be bred. There will be some "accountability" for how the word Doodle is thrown around and used to market dogs.
Then, the breeders, will actually have to spend the money they make selling dogs, on improving the breed, cause of the costs involved with showing, testing, etc. - Rather than making a profit because of a designer title.

Here is something interesting via this link, and a judge in that photo had for 30 years bred, showed plus conformation show judged pure bred registered dogs where they had Rottweilers, German Shepherd Dogs, Collies, Shih Tzus and Maltese, and now what do you think that these people in the photo maybe interested in, and yes I understand costs and gees if you want I'll show you my dogs specialist health certificates if you show me yours:-
http://www.alpsdoodles.org/pages/malibushow06.htm
.

Originally Posted by B-Line

BTW Quincy, what is your argument regarding a Doodle vs. an Australian Doodle.
Because it seems as if, you probably are more on my side of the argument than you think you are. What are you're feelings about non Australian "Doodle" breeders ?

My wife and I for some years bred and showed Cavalier King Charles Spaniels where they obtained quite a few showing titles. Now we have an "Australian Labradoodle" which I see as a "developing breed". I do not like seeing what's happening where puppy millers and backyard breeders are churning out heaps of Cavaliers or some sort of Doodles or whatever dogs.
.

Originally Posted by B-Line

Hope it doesn't start some sort of fashion where heaps of puppy millers and backyarders jump in to make $$$.
.

Originally Posted by B-Line

Yeah, I know..

I didn't mean it to. I think Quincy kept prodding it. I really had no interest in slamming Doodle's. I think they can be great dogs.

But the more I tried to ignore the requests to get into the fray, the more she tried to pull me in. And once I was in, I was in.

Sorry if it seemed as though this did turn into a Doodle bashing thread.

I was really just trying to answer questions that many people have asked me previously about the differences between a PWD and a Doodle.

My bad.

By the way, I am a he, but then maybe you missed some of my posts where I mentioned My wife and I.

B-Line, when you started this thread you put my Quincy's photo in that post and where you wanted to do a "Compare and Contrast". You called my Quincy by various names and where I feel that was not correct but you kept on persisting, well I thought before you do some sort of "Compare and Contrast" with my dog then you should at least know what my dog really is and he is not some of the names you mentioned. I think that you turned it into a Doodle bashing thread and I seem to remember you mentioning somewhere about providing education this I think to stear people away from doodles and to the breed you have or maybe other registered pure bred dogs.
.

[B-Line]

Quincy, your responses, on so many levels, are just so asinine, from your first response where you specifically mention, that, you have not the time to read the whole the thread. To the next one, where you bashed me for not answering your post in a timely enough fashion. To the several that came after that, asking me to please compare and contrast, which I had already done, several times: Size, Coat, Temperament, etc.

Trying to have a conversation with you is like watching a monkey trying to have sex with a football: while entertaining, it's not really advancing any consciousness.

Every-time I read one of your responses, I am quietly reminded how good a thing it is, that no every Doodle owner, wants a PWD.

P.S. - You have obviously not heard a thing I have said about Doodle's, cause I have repeatedly said, I like them very much. It's the ethics behind the majority of the so called breeders that I don't like and the seemingly endless misinformation Doodle owners are constantly yapping about PWD's and their inability to be trained, too high energy, etc.

Having said all that, I really, no longer wish, to continue giving you examples of how Doodle's are similar or different from PWD's. I also have no idea what this PHANTOM question, you keep referring to is.

So have a nice weekend... As far as I'm concerned, this conversation is over.

p.s.s. - Just because you put a negative connotation on the word mutt, does not mean that everyone else in the world shares your view on the term. I certainly don't like it when breeders use the term "BITCH", but I'm not about to start a rally for doggie, political correctness... ANd that's all I have to say about that.

[dog-man]

Originally Posted by B-Line

Trying to have a conversation with you is like watching a monkey trying to have sex with a football: while entertaining, it's not really advancing any consciousness.

i've never seen that...

[JDub]

Originally Posted by B-Line

Trying to have a conversation with you is like watching a monkey trying to have sex with a football

I'd pay $5 to watch that. Got a link??


I dont understand the aversion to the word "mutt" either. A mutt is simply two unmatched breeds making a dog. That's what a Doodle is. If/when the AKC recognizes them as an official "breed", then the mutt tag would be dropped. If I had a doodle, and someone called it a mutt, well, I'd be hard pressed to disagree....but I certainly wouldnt take offense to it.

Originally Posted by dog-man

i've never seen that...

Maybe if you didnt spend so much time reading dog psychology books....



(its a joke)

[B-Line]

Originally Posted by dog-man

i've never seen that...

Best I could come up with, short notice:

[Pai]

Originally Posted by JDub

I'd pay $5 to watch that. Got a link??

Bet you YouTube has it, they have every crazy thing you can imagine there!

[dog-man]

Originally Posted by JDub

I dont understand the aversion to the word "mutt" either. A mutt is simply two unmatched breeds making a dog. That's what a Doodle is. If/when the AKC recognizes them as an official "breed", then the mutt tag would be dropped. If I had a doodle, and someone called it a mutt, well, I'd be hard pressed to disagree....but I certainly wouldnt take offense to it.

actually, i disagree that this is the definition of mutt.
this is the definition as has been promulgated by the AKC, and it's affiliated morons.

i consider a mutt to be a dog that is not the result of intentional, knowledgeable breeding.

however, if someone chooses two quality dogs (whether purebred or not), and believes that high quality dogs will result from the mating (perhaps even better than the two parents), then I would not call the resulting dogs "mutts".

however, to distinguish a goldendoodle from incestuous purebreed dogs, i would simply refer to it as a cross-breed.

[B-Line]

One last point, even though I should just lay it to rest...

-- Why try to invent a breed, where a breed already exists that fits the almost exact same specifications? It's like trying to re-invent the German Shepard, or the Boxer, or the Beagle, or the Pug....

This is the 2006, Australian Doodle, winner, from the site that Quincy posted:
http://www.alpsdoodles.org/pages/malibushow06.htm


Here is a picture of a BROWN, Portuguese Water Dog:


Here is another picture of a Doodle: (hair is long)


And here is a Portuguese Water Dog: (hair is cut short)

[dog-man]

Originally Posted by B-Line

Best I could come up with, short notice:

i guess we all see what we want to see.

i see a quarterback monkey who just took the snap.

[B-Line]

Originally Posted by dog-man

i guess we all see what we want to see.

i see a quarterback monkey who just took the snap.

Has anybody seen this video ??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOyEQcvmuxU

Cause:

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:...nkeySplash.jpg

LOL dogman, you just can't catch a break

[ACampbell]

Originally Posted by B-Line

One last point, even though I should just lay it to rest...

-- Why try to invent a breed, where a breed already exists that fits the almost exact same specifications? It's like trying to re-invent the German Shepard, or the Boxer, or the Beagle, or the Pug....

This is the 2006, Australian Doodle, winner, from the site that Quincy posted:
http://www.alpsdoodles.org/pages/malibushow06.htm


Here is a picture of a BROWN, Portuguese Water Dog:


Here is another picture of a Doodle: (hair is long)


And here is a Portuguese Water Dog: (hair is cut short)

Sad thing is, in my view just from seeing the photos...I can't tell the difference between the two breeds whatsoever.

All I see is a ton of fur that I'd have to trim or brush constantly...no thanks!

[reverend_maynard]

Originally Posted by dog-man

actually, i disagree that this is the definition of mutt.
this is the definition as has been promulgated by the AKC, and it's affiliated morons.

No. This is the definition that has been promulgated by Websters, American Heritage, etc. Write them a letter and tell them they've got it wrong.

Originally Posted by dog-man

i consider a mutt to be a dog that is not the result of intentional, knowledgeable breeding.

Do you always make up your own definitions for words and then expect other people to follow along?

Originally Posted by dog-man

however, if someone chooses two quality dogs (whether purebred or not), and believes that high quality dogs will result from the mating (perhaps even better than the two parents), then I would not call the resulting dogs "mutts".

Sorry. Webster would. All doodles are mutts.

Originally Posted by dog-man

however, to distinguish a goldendoodle from incestuous purebreed dogs, i would simply refer to it as a cross-breed.

Feel free to refer to them anyway you want. Don't object when those of us who aren't using made up definitions of the word mutt call them mutts though.

[JDub]

From Wikipedia....
Mutt may refer to: Mixed-breed dog, a dog that has characteristics of two or more breeds.

Dictionary.com...
mutt, noun...an inferior dog or one of mixed breed

From Wordnet.princeton.edu...
S: (n) cur, mongrel, mutt (an inferior dog or one of mixed breed)

From Wisegeek...
Mutt is one of the many terms for a mixed-breed dog. Such crosses include the labradoodle, a poodle-labrador cross, and a peek-a-poo, a poodle-pekinese cross.



Sorry dog-man.....you have a "mutt".

[dog-man]

Originally Posted by reverend_maynard

No. This is the definition that has been promulgated by Websters, American Heritage, etc. Write them a letter and tell them they've got it wrong.

Do you always make up your own definitions for words and then expect other people to follow along?

what i wonder, is if you have no skills at research, or you are just intellectually dishonest.

i looked up various online dictionaries, and the definition i gave was a valid one, along with yours.

the word, by the way, is somewhat of a slang for "mongrel"...it seems it was only first used in 1901:

mutt from muttonhead, a pejorative term meaning “a stupid person” based on the notion that sheep are stupid. Mutt in its first recorded use in 1901 is used in the same senses as muttonhead, but it is soon recorded (1904) as a term of contempt for a horse and then (1906) for a dog.
(American Heritage Dictionary)
------------------------

there is this from Oxford Pocket Dictionary:
. inf. 1. humorous or derog. a dog, esp. a mongrel: a long-haired mutt of doubtful pedigree.

as you can see, one of the definitions is "doubtful pedigree".
a goldendoodle is not of doubtful pedigree...it was purposefully done.

-------------------------------------

there is dictionary.com:
1. a dog of mixed or indeterminate breed.

so you, see, it can refer to mixed OR indeterminite breed.

the first one is your definition...the second is mine.
---------------

i can only conclude that either you are intellectually dishonest or a mutt yourself, according to the dictionary definition:

2. A stupid person; a dolt

2. a person regarded as stupid or incompetent: “Do not give me orders, mutt.”

Originally Posted by JDub

Sorry dog-man.....you have a "mutt".

i have a well-bred dog.

i do not mind the word mutt...i often tell Oinest he is a stupid mutt.

however, when people use the word mutt to mean that he or other goldendoodles are of inferior breeding, that is not only misleading, but false.

i have already referenced this website many times, which has many articles discussing the serious inherent genetic problems of todays purebred dogs:

www.canine-genetics.com

[reverend_maynard]

Originally Posted by dog-man

what i wonder, is if you have no skills at research, or you are just intellectually dishonest.

i looked up various online dictionaries, and the definition i gave was a valid one, along with yours.

the word, by the way, is somewhat of a slang for "mongrel"...it seems it was only first used in 1901:

mutt from muttonhead, a pejorative term meaning “a stupid person” based on the notion that sheep are stupid. Mutt in its first recorded use in 1901 is used in the same senses as muttonhead, but it is soon recorded (1904) as a term of contempt for a horse and then (1906) for a dog.
(American Heritage Dictionary)
------------------------

there is this from Oxford Pocket Dictionary:
. inf. 1. humorous or derog. a dog, esp. a mongrel: a long-haired mutt of doubtful pedigree.

as you can see, one of the definitions is "doubtful pedigree".
a goldendoodle is not of doubtful pedigree...it was purposefully done.

-------------------------------------

there is dictionary.com:
1. a dog of mixed or indeterminate breed.

so you, see, it can refer to mixed OR indeterminite breed.

the first one is your definition...the second is mine.
---------------

i can only conclude that either you are intellectually dishonest or a mutt yourself, according to the dictionary definition:

2. A stupid person; a dolt

2. a person regarded as stupid or incompetent: “Do not give me orders, mutt.”



i have a well-bred dog.

i do not mind the word mutt...i often tell Oinest he is a stupid mutt.

however, when people use the word mutt to mean that he or other goldendoodles are of inferior breeding, that is not only misleading, but false.

i have already referenced this website many times, which has many articles discussing the serious inherent genetic problems of todays purebred dogs:

www.canine-genetics.com

Who's being intellectually dishonest again? Cross-breeds are mutts. Oinest is a mutt.

[JDub]

Edited out the response.... this thread has gone beyond stupidity. Nice work dog-man.

[ACampbell]

I love how when someone doesn't agree on something with dog-man, he uses "intellectually dishonest" as his scapegoat...I've read it so many times I'm sick of hearing it - thats my last stance on this whole thread...it's gone to the dogs!

[dog-man]

Originally Posted by reverend_maynard

Who's being intellectually dishonest again? Cross-breeds are mutts. Oinest is a mutt.

hey pal, you said i made up the definition...and it turns out there are different definitions, just as i said...

the one promulgated by the morons who believe in AKC closed-book breeding methods...and one for people with a more open mind of what is best for dog health...

for my sources, i already posted a website with many knowledgeable folk on the issue.

where's your sources on the genetic issues?

Originally Posted by ACampbell

I love how when someone doesn't agree on something with dog-man, he uses "intellectually dishonest" as his scapegoat...I've read it so many times I'm sick of hearing it - thats my last stance on this whole thread...it's gone to the dogs!

no, i said he is either intellectually dishonest OR stupid.

the definition as i stated it was to be found on all different dictionaries...and all he sees is the definition he wants to see.

i am polite to those who debate polite...but if you want to throw mud...like saying i made up a definition and get all sarcastic about it...then get ready to have some mud thrown back.

Originally Posted by JDub

Edited out the response.... this thread has gone beyond stupidity. Nice work dog-man.

your definition of beyond stupidity is when the point you were making is found to be erroneous.

[JDub]

Originally Posted by dog-man

your definition of beyond stupidity is when the point you were making is found to be erroneous.

No, actually its the point where we determine we're all saying the same thing, but you continue to argue. A mutt is a mixed breed. Your doodle is a mixed breed. But in your head, the quacking of a duck, and the looks of a duck, obviously mean its not a duck. That right there is a special kind of stupid.