[ACampbell]

Originally Posted by dog-man

you probably read his book.

but me, i'm more picky.

a well-reviewed book by an expert is more trusted by me than a bunch of dopes on a forum.

especially if i compare a few.

Lol, anybody can write a book...some of the worst books I've ever read got "great reviews" yet bored me to tears...
Just because the NY Times says it's a good book, does not make it so. This goes for any books or literature for that matter.

Next thing you know Oprah will be reviewing dog books...God help us all.

Originally Posted by JDub

pssst....b-line, ACampbell, I think he's talking about you guys.

Seriously though...what makes the guy an expert? Is it that he has spent a lot of time around the breed that he writes about? Is he a breeder? Has he worked shows to see the standards, the norms, etc? I'm guessing these same people are the ones that run the national clubs. Other than spending a LOT of time with a dog, what else would make one an "expert"??

Shhhh, JDub, I'd already forgotten to care who he was attempting to make a snide remark about!

Also, on a side note, I agree with you!

[Laurelin]

My problem with the 'intelligence tests' is that I think they sometimes confuse trainability with intelligence.

Some breeds just aren't bred to work with people the way that others are. It doesn't mean they're stupid.

Trey is probably the most trainable dog we have. However, he has no common sense and cannot problem solve at all.

Papillons are rated lower than the other breeds I've owned, but as individuals they seem to me to be a lot more perceptive and able to problem solve than all the other dogs we've owned, with the possible exception of the german shepherd.

Then Nikki and Trey are the same breed and Trey is just not all there... but Nikki is savvy and yet not as command oriented.

[dog-man]

Originally Posted by ACampbell

Lol, anybody can write a book...some of the worst books I've ever read got "great reviews" yet bored me to tears...

Next thing you know Oprah will be reviewing dog books...God help us all.
!

Actually, Oprah does review dog books.

anyone can write a book, but it takes people of discretion to choose which to read.
if you feel you are not capable, then i agree it is not the best way for you to go.

[ACampbell]

No I believe I'm more than capable of picking my own reading material, and not having other people pick it for me (i.e. reviews)

[JDub]

I'll take this one in two pieces....

Originally Posted by dog-man

Actually, Oprah does review dog books.

And none of her recommendations or supported books ever turns out wrong.

Originally Posted by dog-man

anyone can write a book, but it takes people of discretion to choose which to read.
if you feel you are not capable, then i agree it is not the best way for you to go.

After reading this, and some of your others, you can imagine how unsurprised I was to see where you live.

[dog-man]

Originally Posted by JDub

Seriously though...what makes the guy an expert? Is it that he has spent a lot of time around the breed that he writes about? Is he a breeder? Has he worked shows to see the standards, the norms, etc? I'm guessing these same people are the ones that run the national clubs. Other than spending a LOT of time with a dog, what else would make one an "expert"??

two of the main sources i used were:

Daniel F. Ortora, Phd, an animal psychologist, in the book "The right dog for you".

Caroline Coile, Phd
Encyclopedia of Dog Breeds.

both books were well-written, and were clearly the result of a great amount of research and experience.

if you know a source i should trust more, let me know.

[Laurelin]

Originally Posted by JDub

After reading this, and some of your others, you can imagine how unsurprised I was to see where you live.

What do I know, I'm just a good ol' southerner.

Originally Posted by dog-man

two of the main sources i used were:

Daniel F. Ortora, Phd, an animal psychologist, in the book "The right dog for you".

Caroline Coile, Phd
Encyclopedia of Dog Breeds.

both books were well-written, and were clearly the result of a great amount of research and experience.

if you know a source i should trust more, let me know.

I have the Encyclopedia of Dog Breeds.... I like the pictures.

Honestly, I've not found an all breed book that I've been terribly impressed with.

Most basically reword the breed standard and throw in a few pictures. It's nothing like the information that's out there by truly educated people on the breed.

[B-Line]

Originally Posted by dog-man

"spirited" and "self-willed" and "very resistant to fatigue" sound good, and can be good...but these words also send possible warning signals for my tastes.

if they are ok with strangers who come to the house, but not exceptional, they probably wouldn't mention it.

I would say, both of my dogs are, spirited, are also "resistant to fatigue", and are self willed.
- in that, they love to play. They can play all day. And they are also self willed - they love to test boundaries. That is why they are considered mischievous.

They know the rules but they also expect you to enforce the rules. If you don't enforce the rules, they will take advantage. They are testing you.

And that is why a PWD owner, needs to be firm. Needs to train their dog, needs to direct the intelligence. - And that is also why, they are so rewarding, when you do so.

Dog Man, Wikipedia lists the temperament of a Doodle as such:

Appearance and Temperament
The Labradoodle as a dog breed is still developing, and does not yet breed true, i.e. the puppies do not have consistently predictable characteristics. While many Labradoodles display desired traits, their appearance and behavioral characteristics remain, from a breeding standpoint, unpredictable.
As such, Labradoodles' hair can be anywhere from wiry to soft, and may be straight, wavy, or curly. Some Labradoodles do shed, although the coat usually sheds less and has less dog odor than that of a Labrador Retriever. The color range includes white, cream, gold, apricot, red, brown and black, and most of the other colors seen in Poodles.
[edit]

So, you're telling me, you would rather have a grab bag of traits that are unpredictable, than a dog who wants to be trained? Than a dog that will please you to no end, provided you teach it, what does and doesn't please you.

Your rational still doesn't make much sense. The smarter the dog, the more you need to feed it's mind, or it will become willful and destructive, regardless of breed.

[JDub]

Originally Posted by dog-man

an animal psychologist

*snickers*




For real? How many dog breeds are there? 400+ according to Wikipedia...plus countless mutt varieties. But these folks are an expert on them ALL?? Really? And they gain this knowledge.....how? By spending time with them? Aside from advanced education, this makes them any more qualified than full time breeders to discuss breed traits.....how???

Animal psychologist...I've heard it all now.

Originally Posted by dog-man

Daniel F. Ortora, Phd

Ironically, Google has never heard of this guy.

As for the woman, ZOMG...she has a book on every breed. She is either a complete expert of ALL dogs, or simply knows how to put together a book based on generalizations of breed characteristics in order to make a buck. Hmmmmm......

Originally Posted by B-Line

I would say, both of my dogs are, spirited, are also "resistant to fatigue", and are self willed.
- in that, they love to play. They can play all day. And they are also self willed - they love to test boundaries. That is why they are considered mischievous.

They know the rules but they also expect you to enforce the rules. If you don't enforce the rules, they will take advantage. They are testing you.

And that is why a PWD owner, needs to be firm. Needs to train their dog, needs to direct the intelligence. - And that is also why, they are so rewarding, when you do so.

Dog Man, Wikipedia lists the temperament of a Doodle as such:

Appearance and Temperament
The Labradoodle as a dog breed is still developing, and does not yet breed true, i.e. the puppies do not have consistently predictable characteristics. While many Labradoodles display desired traits, their appearance and behavioral characteristics remain, from a breeding standpoint, unpredictable.
As such, Labradoodles' hair can be anywhere from wiry to soft, and may be straight, wavy, or curly. Some Labradoodles do shed, although the coat usually sheds less and has less dog odor than that of a Labrador Retriever. The color range includes white, cream, gold, apricot, red, brown and black, and most of the other colors seen in Poodles.
[edit]

So, you're telling me, you would rather have a grab bag of traits that are unpredictable, than a dog who wants to be trained? Than a dog that will please you to no end, provided you teach it, what does and doesn't please you.

Your rational still doesn't make much sense. The smarter the dog, the more you need to feed it's mind, or it will become willful and destructive, regardless of breed.

Bravo B-Line....bravo. I put my 18 month old (at the time) on the floor around 3 PWD's late last year. We did not know them, they did not know us, we were in "their" house. They were extremely gentle, playful, and loving on her. It was one of the reasons we chose the breed.

[ACampbell]

Originally Posted by JDub

After reading this, and some of your others, you can imagine how unsurprised I was to see where you live.

I'm going to have to agree with this...being a NY transplant I can understand Dog-mans frustrations on life...especially if he drives a car anywhere in this state!

On another note...Just because someone has a PhD doesn't mean they are qualified to attribute to every aspect of a certain thing. Example, I know someone who is a professor (DVM) at University of Virginia...he has at least 2 books published on horse genetics (coloration) - I helped supply some of the folicles and pictures for the book (my family ranch) - and the man knows his sh!t when it comes to genetics...but when it actually comes down to horses and evaluation...I'd rather have a dog show judge my horse than him. He is a very intelligent person, no doubt, but that doesn't mean he knows anything about training, breed characteristics, etc...

So, explain to me how an animal psychologist is going to know every aspect? Did she lay a dog down on a couch and ask him what was bothering him, to which he replied "Well Doc, it's like this, I want everyone to know that my breed, the _______ is the most intelligent, but somehow I can't convey this message"

Originally Posted by Laurelin

What do I know, I'm just a good ol' southerner.



I have the Encyclopedia of Dog Breeds.... I like the pictures.

Honestly, I've not found an all breed book that I've been terribly impressed with.

Most basically reword the breed standard and throw in a few pictures. It's nothing like the information that's out there by truly educated people on the breed.

Agreed, as from living on a horse breeding ranch and owning the Encyclopedia on Horse Breeds - I can definetely say this.

For the breed that we breed, it is the most inaccurate thing I have ever read.

One of the major "aspects" the book mentions is their "calm temprament" - Uhm...NOOOOOOO! Our breed is a very "active" one and is about as calm as dogs during 4th of July (this is not based on any specific horse mind you, but on the 50 that my family owns and the various breeders I know)

So, it makes one wonder, if something is that blatantly incorrect, what else is wrong with it?

[B-Line]

Dog Man -

I thought of another way to explain this to you in your terms. Lets pretend that a dog author, studying breeds, decided to include a description of a DOODLE, in their material.

What do you think that review of the Doodle would say? (Not just Otie, but the entire Doodle family. After all, you did not know how Otie was going to turn out when you adopted him.)

I'm betting a Doodle description would read something like this:

Size:
Unpredictable - Small to Large

Tempermeant
Care should also be taken to keep your dog leashed and under your control at all times, as Goldendoodles are very keen on following their nose, and will often turn a deaf ear to your commands. Because of the Goldendoodle's high energy and protracted puppy hood (and the potential for accidental injury to humans therein), this dog should be closely supervised around small children and the elderly until full adulthood is reached. Even socialized and trained Goldendoodles should be supervised. Any dog can be aggressive without warning, and due to their size and buoyant nature, Goldendoodles can easily hurt someone even in play. Goldendoodles need lots of care during puppyhood, as they are extremely high-energy, enthusiastic dogs. This breed is a great family dog and it is also good for someone that lives alone.

or

The Labradoodle as a dog breed is still developing, and does not yet breed true, i.e. the puppies do not have consistently predictable characteristics. While many Labradoodles display desired traits, their appearance and behavioral characteristics remain, from a breeding standpoint, unpredictable.

Coat
Labradoodles' hair can be anywhere from wiry to soft, and may be straight, wavy, or curly. Some Labradoodles do shed, although the coat usually sheds less and has less dog odor than that of a Labrador Retriever.


My point is, you are only reading what you want to read and seeing what you want to see.

In case you're not sure who's winning this argument, here is some video to help you figure it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOyEQcvmuxU

[ACampbell]

B-line...that video is priceless...LMFAO!

[dog-man]

i have learned much from internet dog forums such as this.

however, i count my blessings that i was not aware of these forums before i made my choice of dog.

Heaven forfend that i should trust my own research, judgement and intuition.

by following the above, i obtained and trained a pooch that is beyond what i imagined a canine could be.

[B-Line]

WOOHOO. I WON !!!!!!

LOL....

Otie is a great looking dog and glad you're happy with your doodle.
Now back to the normal fights, Pit bulls vs. Caesar Milan


Btw Dog-Man, this was never a:
Maggie vs. Otie argument. Or
Nikita vs. Quincy, etc.

It was always about paying money for a breed or paying money for a mutt, labeled as a breed, to line the pockets of mostly unscrupulous breeders.

[ACampbell]

Originally Posted by B-Line

WOOHOO. I WON !!!!!!

LOL....

Otie is a great looking dog and glad you're happy with your doodle.
Now back to the normal fights, Pit bulls vs. Caesar Milan

Ohhh them is fighting words! Depends on what side of the fence you're on with Pits and we may not get along anymore! Lol j/k and I could give a rat's butt about Caesar Milan so it's all good there

[B-Line]

I was just kidding about the Pit argument, but since it's been addressed, I'll give my .02 cent opinion.

Pit's are great dogs, for certain owners. Unfortunately 95% of the Pits/owners I have met, have not been those certain owners.
5% have.

As Pit's have become increasingly popular, it would seem the caliber of qualified people that have them as pets, has severely diminished. And they continue to become more popular, and the people who adopt them, breed them, etc, continue to be less capable..

But I still think they are awesome dogs.

B

[ACampbell]

Yep we still agree...you'r enot on my "bad dog" list hehe

[dog-man]

Originally Posted by B-Line

Btw Dog-Man, this was never a:
Maggie vs. Otie argument. Or
Nikita vs. Quincy, etc.

It was always about paying money for a breed or paying money for a mutt, labeled as a breed, to line the pockets of mostly unscrupulous breeders.

i would pay 5 times the amount i paid for my WELL-BRED mutt (labeled by no one i know as a breed), from a loving breeder, who has a right to make a living from her work.

purebreeds are overrated, as i've discussed many times.

i can't speak for PWDs...maybe they were spared so far, since they only joined AKC fairly recently.

but i gotta tell you, B-Line, your humble and respectful tone at the beginning of the thread has changed quite a bit by now.

[Pai]

Originally Posted by dog-man

but i gotta tell you, B-Line, your humble and respectful tone at the beginning of the thread has changed quite a bit by now.

You just have that effect on people, it seems!

*runs away again*

[B-Line]

Yeah, I know..

I didn't mean it to. I think Quincy kept prodding it. I really had no interest in slamming Doodle's. I think they can be great dogs.

But the more I tried to ignore the requests to get into the fray, the more she tried to pull me in. And once I was in, I was in.

Sorry if it seemed as though this did turn into a Doodle bashing thread.

I was really just trying to answer questions that many people have asked me previously about the differences between a PWD and a Doodle.

My bad.