[Lonewolfblue]

Has anyone ever picked up a dog that had a problem that you didn't know about, and tried to help, but because of the stress, returned the dog back to the rescue or humane society? As most of you know, I've been working with Betty to try and get rid of her fear aggression, but in all that we've done, she's no better now than when I got her. In fact, as she gets older, she seems to be getting more aggressive towards other dogs. And it's starting to get at me, lol. She's really grown on me, but at the same time, I've been pretty stressed about the issues, and won't be able to do any competitions with her if she can't get rid of the behaviour. The fear aggression seems to be set in really deep, deeper than we anticipated. I really don't want to give her up, but at the same time, I don't want the stress of her always going off while on walks when other dogs are around, as well as not trusting that she won't bite myself or another person or dog when she is in that deep fear state. I have 100% confidence she won't bite anyone when no other dogs are present, as she can be a total lovebug. It's been almost 3 months now that I've had her, and you would think that some progress should have been made. The only progress she has made is in her Rally training and Obedience when no other dogs are present. Then there's the few days where I thought I was making great progress, like when a friend had his dog with us, and were getting to the point where his dog could walk by within 2 feet and Betty would just lay there with her tongue hanging out. But then the very next day, on another walk, she was in extreme fear even with the other dog 30 yards away. Any comments are appreciated....

[TeddieXRuxpin]

What kind of work have you been doing and have you been doing it by yourself?

If so you need to go to go to a good trainer who is willing to really work with you.

I'm sorry, but I really loose respect for people that return a dog for such a reason. She may not be the right dog to do competition with and this isn't the type of behavior that just goes away in a few months.

I think you need to seek outside help if you haven't already.

[Lonewolfblue]

We are working with a trainer, trying to socialize her with the trainers 2 dogs. The training is basically using treats to reward good behaviour, and the prong collar for corrections. Betty doesn't go off when the other dog is sitting still, but once in motion, there's no controlling her at all. She's 100% fixed on the other dog, and you CANNOT turn her head away. I've been trying out the Gentle Leader, you are supposedly able to turn the dogs focus away from the other dog, but not Betty. She's much too powerful, and when you do get her turned away, within a second, she's back facing the dog again.

As for what we've been working on, we mostly use the Sit command. When she does her bad behaviour, we give her the command to Sit. If she does, she get's the treat. If not, she get's a correction and then the command Sit again. When she does sit, she get's her treat and alot of praise. Also, when the command is given, it's not in a forceful manner. It's more of a happy Sit. We do this with the trainers dog sitting still at first, then in motion at a distance. We also have both dogs in motion as well, and she's not as bad when walking the same direction, but when we are walking towards each other, there's no controlling Betty at all. She completely ignores the prong collar as well.

Now, I do understand that it will take much time. But you think that after about 3 months, you would start seeing SOME progress. But I see no progress, but rather the opposite. And it's really stressful on me because what I wanted in a dog is a dog to go with me wherever I go, and do things with her without her constantly wanting to go at other dogs. I just feel I got one of those extreme cases where she might have been attacked as a pup and it's really set in deep. At least that's what the trainer is now beginning to feel as well, as it seems she's most fearful of Small White dogs, as well as any small dog. But the white poodles down the street, that's when she's the most fearful, and I try to work with her on our walks as much as possible when going by there, but it's to the point where she's already tensing up at 2 blocks away.

I was also talking to another rescue place online, and they feel that I should find a place where they take in dogs, like Cesars place, where there's many other dogs, and put her in there and let her correct the problem on her own, dog style. But I know of no such place around here that does that. And as for animal behaviorists, the closest is a 3 hour drive, and with my work hours, I can't even make the latest appointment, as their last time of the day is 6pm, and I get off work at 6pm, lol. So my only other option I know of is to let her go if I can't get the problem corrected.

One last thing too. If I do decide to let her go, it won't actually be taking her back. I was planning on seeing if I could foster her til they find her new owner. I would also do the writeup on her myself for them to post, as I know her a lot better than the humane society would. I would note her problem, as well as what type of home I feel she would do well in, which would be out in the country and a single dog family. She would do awsome in that setting. And as for cattle and sheep, she takes great interest in as well, and I know, just by looking at her near cattle and sheep, that the herding instinct is there. She lights up like a light bulb. Also her training would also continue until a new owner is found, that part would not stop.

Edit:
As for competition, my trainer feels the opposite, that she sees very good potential in Betty. If she could compete with no other dogs present, she'd do awsome. But they don't allow dogs near the ring if they have any issues with other dogs. Even though only one dog is allowed in the ring at a time, they don't want the dogs outside the ring interfering with the competing dog with the sounds of a raging dog that sounds like it wants to go at all the other dogs. With all that she's worked on with Betty, she feels Betty would excel all the way to Utility with no problems. But she has to get rid of this behaviour to even get to the first step. Also, with the rate at which Betty is learning, the trainer also believes that she's already been through some obedience classes before I got her, as she already knew several commands, as well as a couple hand commands. But when another dog comes into view, or she hears a bark, it all goes out the window.

[TeddieXRuxpin]

Originally Posted by Lonewolfblue

We are working with a trainer, trying to socialize her with the trainers 2 dogs. The training is basically using treats to reward good behaviour, and the prong collar for corrections. Betty doesn't go off when the other dog is sitting still, but once in motion, there's no controlling her at all. She's 100% fixed on the other dog, and you CANNOT turn her head away. I've been trying out the Gentle Leader, you are supposedly able to turn the dogs focus away from the other dog, but not Betty. She's much too powerful, and when you do get her turned away, within a second, she's back facing the dog again.

There is a lot more in training a fear aggression dog that rewarding when good and a correction with a prong collar when bad. When she acts up you need to just leave the room with her. It could take an hour of back and forth. To tell you the truth your trainer sounds like no good at all. Any kind of aggression is not something to take lightly and it take A LOT and I mean A LOT of time to correct. I would look into a different trainer. After some time of not seeing an improvement your trainer should have looked into another option.

As for what we've been working on, we mostly use the Sit command. When she does her bad behaviour, we give her the command to Sit. If she does, she get's the treat. If not, she get's a correction and then the command Sit again. When she does sit, she get's her treat and alot of praise. Also, when the command is given, it's not in a forceful manner. It's more of a happy Sit. We do this with the trainers dog sitting still at first, then in motion at a distance. We also have both dogs in motion as well, and she's not as bad when walking the same direction, but when we are walking towards each other, there's no controlling Betty at all. She completely ignores the prong collar as well.

Has she ever been let of lead with another dog? A lot of dogs even some of my own dogs are completely different than when they are off lead. Have you ever though about that? When on a lead with you they become a lot more protective than off lead and not right next to you.

Now, I do understand that it will take much time. But you think that after about 3 months, you would start seeing SOME progress. But I see no progress, but rather the opposite. And it's really stressful on me because what I wanted in a dog is a dog to go with me wherever I go, and do things with her without her constantly wanting to go at other dogs. I just feel I got one of those extreme cases where she might have been attacked as a pup and it's really set in deep. At least that's what the trainer is now beginning to feel as well, as it seems she's most fearful of Small White dogs, as well as any small dog. But the white poodles down the street, that's when she's the most fearful, and I try to work with her on our walks as much as possible when going by there, but it's to the point where she's already tensing up at 2 blocks away.

That is very possible. And in these day a lot of rescue dogs have been abused and neglected. And if that is the case and it is set in deep it may take even longer. It may take not months but years before she is fully recovered from her past. This is something you have to think about when adopting any dog.

I was also talking to another rescue place online, and they feel that I should find a place where they take in dogs, like Cesars place, where there's many other dogs, and put her in there and let her correct the problem on her own, dog style. But I know of no such place around here that does that. And as for animal behaviorists, the closest is a 3 hour drive, and with my work hours, I can't even make the latest appointment, as their last time of the day is 6pm, and I get off work at 6pm, lol. So my only other option I know of is to let her go if I can't get the problem corrected.

My only other suggestion is taking her to a facility where you leave her for a month to three months and have the behavior corrected with some one who knows what they're doing. This is not going to be corrected on her own. A fear aggression is not fixed by placing her in a group and expecting her to fix it by herself. This is also why I asked if she had ever been let off lead with another dog.

One last thing too. If I do decide to let her go, it won't actually be taking her back. I was planning on seeing if I could foster her til they find her new owner. I would also do the writeup on her myself for them to post, as I know her a lot better than the humane society would. I would note her problem, as well as what type of home I feel she would do well in, which would be out in the country and a single dog family. She would do awsome in that setting. And as for cattle and sheep, she takes great interest in as well, and I know, just by looking at her near cattle and sheep, that the herding instinct is there. She lights up like a light bulb. Also her training would also continue until a new owner is found, that part would not stop.

If you are going to foster her any way you're going to have to put forth the effort to get this fixed any way. There are VERY few people out there that want to take on an agressive dog knowing how they act. And for the reason you're giving her up (because you can't correct it) only makes the chances more slim. Believe me working with a rescue it doesn't happen, but every blue moon.

Edit:

As for competition, my trainer feels the opposite, that she sees very good potential in Betty. If she could compete with no other dogs present, she'd do awsome. But they don't allow dogs near the ring if they have any issues with other dogs. Even though only one dog is allowed in the ring at a time, they don't want the dogs outside the ring interfering with the competing dog with the sounds of a raging dog that sounds like it wants to go at all the other dogs. With all that she's worked on with Betty, she feels Betty would excel all the way to Utility with no problems. But she has to get rid of this behaviour to even get to the first step. Also, with the rate at which Betty is learning, the trainer also believes that she's already been through some obedience classes before I got her, as she already knew several commands, as well as a couple hand commands. But when another dog comes into view, or she hears a bark, it all goes out the window.

This sounds more like you got a dog that you wanted to be problem free and to start working for this competion. This is why I said she may not be the dog for this.

[Anela]

Would you return a child if it had issues you couldn't control? I would hope not, I would also hope that you would work to fix things.

I agree that I also have no respect for people who give up on a dog and send it back. This is not going to fix the problem, it's going to dump it into someone else’s lap, perhaps for the worse.

If I had given up on two of my dogs over the past 17 years, they would have gone back also. Before I commit myself to a dog, I am sure beyond doubt, that I will keep it for life, no matter what, and do what it takes to deal with things. Believe me, my last rescue has put me through hell, but it wasn't her fault she was traumatized before I came along. Things got so bad the rescue league asked me if I wanted to return her after I had her for 3 months. Fast forward almost two years after I got her and now she's a wonderful companion.

Perhaps you should forget what you originally had in mind for the dog and concentrate on what really needs to be done, for both of you. That is, fixing the problem before you move on to other things.

Anela

[Cheetah]

I've never returned a pet myself, but I work at a shelter and people return pets often. They just go back up for adoption. If they need extra training for their issues, they receive that as well while they are back at the shelter. I had a favorite dog, Tippy, get returned recently for training issues and that's what happened to her. She was back at the shelter for less than a week and was re-adopted quickly.

I hope you are able to help Betty though, so you don't have to return her.

[sheltiemom]

First off, I would never actually encourage anyone to return a dog, and I would say definitely don't return her to a shelter, but I completely understand where you are coming from and I know that not every dog is a good fit in every environment. A dog with fear or aggression issues is not going to do as well in a neighborhood where there are dogs and kids outside every time you open the door, as it would in, say, a country setting. Also not every person has time and resources to deal with serious problems in a dog - aggression issues go beyond simple training issues like housebreaking, etc, and it's not the same as returning a dog for chewing your carpet or peeing on your rug. If you decide to rehome, get her into a rescue or foster her until she can be placed. You'll have to be very clear about her issues and very selective about where she goes and the type of environment.

If you are still committed to working with her, I'd suggest a new trainer, one who is also a behaviorist. I'm far from an expert, but I have heard negative things about using leash corrections with DA or leash aggressive dogs. The last thing you want is the dog associating the leash correction with the presence of another dog. I am also curious if you have let her off leash with another dog at all, and if you know if the problem is with other dogs, or the leash/barrier. Not saying go try it right now if you haven't, just something to think about.

I know most everyone here likes to rescue/adopt from shelters and that's great, really really great, but I'd also like to suggest that if you want a dog for competition, agility, etc, and that is very important to you and one of your main reasons for getting a dog, you may do better with a dog from a breeder who trains his/her dogs for competition events. Again, not saying return your dog and go get one from a breeder, just throwing that out there for the future.

[RonE]

Shelters and rescues that I'm familiar with have a stipulation that, if you ever surrender the dog, it must be to them. I imagine people cheat all the time, but I think we should honor our agreements.

I understand the dismay when dog lovers hear about anyone considering surrendering their dog, but maybe some of that passion should be reserved for those that dump the dog on the roadside or withhold food, shelter or medical care, or throw the dogs in a ring to fight to the death.

Surrendering a dog is a tough decision, and not one I can imagine making, but there are worse crimes against canines.

[tirluc]

this doesn't sound like fear aggression at all to me but just out and out aggression towards other dogs.....in all the fear aggression that i have worked w/, the dog first react by wanting to get away and when that is not possible the aggression and fight come into play.....

i know i'll hear it from most here but have you tried putting her into a down position and having the other dog come and sniff her? ....i'm not talking an alpha roll, i'm talking lay her down, on her side, and have her relax...treat and talk to her while the other dog comes forward and to sniff her.....when the dog is at a place where she is not going to stay down, have the other person stop and stay there w/ the dog and get her back under control, then proceed.....i have had complete success w/ this w/ all the aggression towards anything that i have worked w/......i worked w/ one (an Aussie/Border) that was unpredictably aggressive towards people--you could come and pet her and everything would be fine then she'd (maybe, not always) turn and walk about 5', turn and bite....never knew when or who she'd do it w/, could be someone she knew for a while, but she was always aggressive w/ kids......after i worked w/ her for 4 mo and a friend (who now owns her) continued, when she gets stressed she puts herself into a down on her side (she'll bark at some one, we say her name, and she lays down).....then she'll go greet the person.....even kids of all ages......

i don't believe in alpha rolls (you don't need to make a dog afraid of you), but a submissive down has worked for me everytime..... and the most control i use to put, hold them there is voice and hand on ribs......w/ the treats....

[sheltiemom]

Originally Posted by RonE

Shelters and rescues that I'm familiar with have a stipulation that, if you ever surrender the dog, it must be to them. I imagine people cheat all the time, but I think we should honor our agreements.

I agree most of the time, the problem I would have is returning a dog to a kill shelter and saying "Hey, this dog has an aggression problem". You are basically taking the dog to be put down in that case. PLEASE tell the truth about the problem though, or you would just be putting it off on someone else....tough decision.

[Dogstar]

Here's my take.

I've rehomed dogs after a conformation career was over (Summer and Jester), and I've contemplated it when a dog does not turn out for working (Mal, although I don't think I can go through with it.) BUT- and here's the big but- I wasn't LOOKING for either of their homes actively, and they did NOT have any behavior problems.

Both Jester and Summer went to individuals who came to me looking for an adult dog and an adult Cardi specifically. Summer's owner had been turned down by rescue because of her autistic son. Jester's owner had been on a waiting list with breed rescue for 8 months. In the first case, I looked for an adult rescue (she was willing to consider a corgi mix or potentially a non-corgi in the same size and energy range, with the same general personality) who was super-stable and great with kids for about 4 months before havnig a "DUH" moment when I realized how HAPPY Summer was when they visited- and how depressed she was when they left. In the second case, it was serendipity- Robin met Jester when I was walking him and Indy in my parents' neighborhood after I'd made the decision to retire him from the show ring and neuter him, and it was love at first sight.

Both cases, it was because the dog couldn't do what I wanted, but frankly, thre's a difference between rehoming a performance prospect who didn't turn out that you've trained properly, and one that has problems.

I think you ned to deal with Betty's fear aggression yourself- and I think you need a better trainer- before even CONTEMPLATING rehoming her. It may never be totally overcome- and in that case, honestly, I'd manage her behavior in house and get a second dog.

[lovemygreys]

I've never, and can't imagine ever, returning a dog I've adopted due to behavior issues. We've adopted behavior cases in the past and have been able to work through them...even mild dog aggression. If I were fostering a dog and felt I wasn't making any progress or the dog was disruptive to our pack, then I would have no issues requesting that the dog to be moved to another foster home.

If it's been three months and you've seen no progress (or even backwards "progress"), then something isn't working...whether it's the training method, the trainer or the dog just isn't a good match for you...*something* isn't working here.

Tough situation.

[Rowdy]

Have you thought about medication? (I appologize if this is a no-no on this list.) I have a friend whose dog is on Prozac, and it's made her much less fearful and aggressive. ALONG WITH A GOOD TRAINER it might make a big difference in her behaviour.

[peace36]

I see why you feel the way you do. If this dog had aggession problems before you got him the shelter should have informed you before adoption how intense it was. It is not like you got her as a young pup and help mold her peronality and train her right from the start.

If those people said look this dog has a severe aggression problem and could possibly bit humans while upset with other dog you problably would not have adopted her. Maybe someone like Ceasar would have and trained her so she could be ready for adoption.

I think it is great that you will continue trying to solve this and if you do decide to give her up to someone willing and able to work with her to sove this that you will foster her in your home.

How long have you had her?

[Ony'sMom]

Honestly, yes I have. But not after a LONG and painful (not to mention expensive) process to rectify the situation.

My StepMother had wanted a dog for several years, starting about a year after we put MY Cocker Spaniel down due to severe Prostate and Colon Cancer (after a few rounds of hefty treatments that did NOT work). I happen to be at a shelter with a friend who was looking at cats, and decided to check out the dog section. I found the most gorgeous Sheltie I had ever seen, who was sweet and docile and lovable. I called my StepMom and she said to bring her home. So I did.

What the Shelter in my case either did not know, or failed to mention, was that the dog was Male Aggressive. Meaning ALL men she came into contact with. Pretty bad when your Dad lives in your house too. We had her for almost a year, crating her whenever men other than my Dad were over, with her being aggressive still while IN the cage, crating her so that my Dad could enter the house (he was the only male she tolerated, and I use that term very loosely). After consulting several behaviorists and working with one in particular and a trainer (both of which, I paid for despite being a struggling student working only part time and paying car payments and insurance, gas, etc) we decided to surrender her back to the Shelter. We made the expressedly knowledgeable about her aggression and they assured us that they would do everything in their power to work with her AND work to find her the right home (it was a low-kill shelter).

I think at some point, enough is enough. No, I would never give up my child because of behavioral issues (and my daughter has several issues that would make other people go crazy, trust me), and I don't think that people should be so quick to do it to animals, but at some point, something had to give. What's best for your family sometimes does hurt your heart. I'm with Ron when he said that we shouldn't chastize for surrendering to a shelter, because there's people out there doing way worse things, like dumping, abusing, mutilating animals. Let's save our anger and energy for them.

[SMoore]

About 2 years ago I was fostering this beautiful Great Pyrenese/Collie mix and tried forever to find her a good home. She was brought back to me 3 different times for fear-aggression. I could handle her but other people were fed up with it.

In any case, I decided to adopt her myself as I was sick of people bringing her back not willing to work with her. It does take time and a lot of patience on your part. It also takes a trainer willing to take the time to help your dog. I got lucky with the trainer I met at Petsmart. We actually became pretty good friends. She started coming over on weekends with her dog (who is deaf) which made it easier because my dog would bark and growl and her dog would just stare at her with a funny look on his face. (she has a lethal white aussie).

Anyhow, it took many steps (and we are still not 100%) but this is what I did.

First i got rid of my prong collar as it did no good and only made the situation worse (it could be different in your case) I also had her slip the prong collar once and can only use it with a dominant dog collar. I bought a head halter (a good one) some of the junk ones out there a dog can easily slip out of.

We would start a good distance away and I would NOT tighten up on the leash. It only gives the dog reason to get tense in my opinion. While she was calm I would keep saying good girl while giving her a little reward.

In the first stage when getting about 10 feet she would start to growl and show teeth. I would put her in a "down stay" and stand over her (not on her) but just over her. I did this as if to say that it's okay and i'm in charge of the situation so that she didn't have to be. She would calm down almost immediately and then I would praise and reward her.

We did this for several weeks and now on walks she will sometimes lunge but all I have to do is tell her down and she will sit and wait patiently for her treat.

I never thought rewarding it would work as she used to just ignore treats and try to go for the other dog. When standing over her it would calm her down a lot. I'm not sure why but it's something my trainer had me start doing.

Also before even bringing another dog into the situation I made sure she had a VERY solid "down" and "down stay" and "sit stay" with distrations. That way I knew she knew what it meant and it made the whole process much easier.

I threw the prong collar out a week ago as I'll probably never need to use it again. I'm not sure how true this is but my trainer dog me that some dogs who are dog-fear aggressive can sometimes try to link the correction with a prong with the other dog and it only makes the situation worse. Especially if you only use the prong collar when other dogs are around. The head collar she didn't mind at all. She walks very well with it on and never tried to get it off. She will walk perfectly on a regular martingale or buckle collar as long as another dog isn't around so the head collar works well in situations where I know other dogs will be nearby.

Anyhow, this is how I dealt with the issue. It may or may not work for you. We still have rough spots here and there but she is a lot easier to control.

Just the other day I was walking her on a buckle collar and someone had their dog off a lead (which drove mine nuts). She slipped her collar I immediately yelled "DOWN!" as loud as I could she turned right to me and dropped. I was pretty impressed and rewarded her greatly for it.

Now she even walks with friends! (she is on the far right)

[Annamarie]

I know exactly how you feel. I once adopted an animal from a rescue that was completely misrepresented to me. I was not prepared for the violent aggressive behavior that she displayed and I could have been (or someone else could have been!) seriously injured! i tried to work with her for 2 years and she was doing great, no more aggression although I always had to tiptoe around her. a year after i thought she was "fixed" she came after me again because she'd hurt her leg and was grouchy. that was it for me. the vet had told me to put her down, the rescue place wouldn't take her back and told me to put her down, and none of the rescues would take her due to aggression. i finally did find a new home for her, someone who was prepared to deal with these issues and work with her constantly. i just couldn't risk being hurt and it wasn't worth me spending my time and money on an animal that I couldn't enjoy being around because I was constantly worried she was going to hurt me. last i heard she's doing wonderfully in her new home. i think as she gets older she's wising up and is a better match to the new person.

my min pin also came with fear aggression issues (nowhere NEAR the previous animal though) and at times I"ve thought the same as you... this is something we're ALWAYS going to have to worry about, is it worth it etc. the difference is that my dog is fine unless someone tries to pet him and he's cornered, he's not trying to attack other dogs (he did when he was a small pup though). when i started to see an improvement in him I started to see be more optimistic about the future. we still have a long way to go but i can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

i would try another trainer personally. also one thing that i find is that many dogs are aggressive on leash but much different off leash. is there a way you can let him meet other dogs off leash but muzzled so he doesn't hurt anyone? i had to do this with my min pin. once he didn't have the option to fight he started to socialize much better.

[Lonewolfblue]

Originally Posted by TeddieXRuxpin

There is a lot more in training a fear aggression dog that rewarding when good and a correction with a prong collar when bad. When she acts up you need to just leave the room with her. It could take an hour of back and forth.

Leave the room with her? We aren't even in a building. Her aggression is with other dogs out on walks. As for in the house, she's the perfect angel. Get's a little excited when a new person comes over, but within 5 minutes, she's calm and a lovebug. And she loves kids as well. She was with the neighbors kids, and when their dad came up to get the kids, she got between them. He had to get me to get the kids because she was in a protective mode. But when I'm actually there, she doesn't do this. She also gets along with the neighbors cats as well, except the white one that lunged at her. She won't go near that kitty, lol. And when that kitty is in my yard, she'd rather be in the house, lol.

Originally Posted by sheltiemom

I agree most of the time, the problem I would have is returning a dog to a kill shelter and saying "Hey, this dog has an aggression problem". You are basically taking the dog to be put down in that case. PLEASE tell the truth about the problem though, or you would just be putting it off on someone else....tough decision.

She won't be returned, unless they say it's required and I can't foster her. But whatever happens, they will know everything. In fact, they already do, as I stay in contact with them on everything, including sending pics.

Originally Posted by Anela

I agree that I also have no respect for people who give up on a dog and send it back. This is not going to fix the problem, it's going to dump it into someone else’s lap, perhaps for the worse.

Respect has no issue here. I've talked to other people, and like others and my parents have stated, if I can't correct the problem, it would be much better to return her than possibly end up in a lawsuit of somekind because she's bitten another dog or person. They actually want me to send her back, but I really want to help her. But because of the area, and not being a large city, the resources are minimum here. And I've checked all over, there are no behaviorists here that I can find. The closest is a little over 3 hours away, and with my work schedule, it doesn't work.

Originally Posted by Anela

Would you return a child if it had issues you couldn't control? I would hope not, I would also hope that you would work to fix things.

I don't ever plan on having kids, so it's not an issue.

Originally Posted by TeddieXRuxpin

Has she ever been let of lead with another dog? A lot of dogs even some of my own dogs are completely different than when they are off lead. Have you ever though about that? When on a lead with you they become a lot more protective than off lead and not right next to you.

No, I haven't let her off lead with other dogs around. And there was a time where she was in the yard off leash, and another dog came up, and they seemed fine. But as soon as I came to the door and Betty saw me, she attacked the other dog and chased it away, but she didn't leave the yard. This was when I was putting up my fence and it wasn't complete yet.

Originally Posted by RonE

Shelters and rescues that I'm familiar with have a stipulation that, if you ever surrender the dog, it must be to them. I imagine people cheat all the time, but I think we should honor our agreements.

Exactly, that's part of the agreement....

Originally Posted by tirluc

this doesn't sound like fear aggression at all to me but just out and out aggression towards other dogs.....in all the fear aggression that i have worked w/, the dog first react by wanting to get away and when that is not possible the aggression and fight come into play.....

It actually is Fear. When she does it, it's not just wanting to attack the other dogs. She cowers down low, and tries to look for an escape. But being on a leash, there is no escape and she's forced to try and hold her ground. That's why I give her full leash length and pull her away from the other dogs, because she tends to swing around behind me, then lunges back. When I got bit was when I was reeling her closer, giving her less escape, and the other guy kept bringing his 2 small dogs closer when I asked not to. She hasn't bitten ever since I stopped reeling her in and just backed off, pulling her away without shortening the leash length and allowing her to swing around behind me.

Originally Posted by Dogstar

I think you ned to deal with Betty's fear aggression yourself- and I think you need a better trainer- before even CONTEMPLATING rehoming her. It may never be totally overcome- and in that case, honestly, I'd manage her behavior in house and get a second dog.

That is the only problem, she's the perfect dog in the house. Her problems begin when stepping out the door and another dog is present. And when I got her, she was the only dog on my block. But since getting her, now we have 3 new dogs on the block, and one is next door. They recently flew in their moms dog from Hawaii to stay here permantly.

Originally Posted by peace36

I see why you feel the way you do. If this dog had aggession problems before you got him the shelter should have informed you before adoption how intense it was. It is not like you got her as a young pup and help mold her peronality and train her right from the start.

That's the problem, the shelter didn't even know of any issues, as she had just been dropped off at night in their fenced area, with no information on the dog at all. And I should have recognized the problem from the start when I was taking her for her first walk, when they helped me bring her out, as I've never done it before and was my first time taking a shelter dog for a walk, and she got away from the gal and knocked an adult pit bull back 3 feet.

Originally Posted by peace36

I see why you feel the way you do. If this dog had aggession problems before you got him the shelter should have informed you before adoption how intense it was. It is not like you got her as a young pup and help mold her peronality and train her right from the start.

If those people said look this dog has a severe aggression problem and could possibly bit humans while upset with other dog you problably would not have adopted her. Maybe someone like Ceasar would have and trained her so she could be ready for adoption.

I think it is great that you will continue trying to solve this and if you do decide to give her up to someone willing and able to work with her to sove this that you will foster her in your home.

How long have you had her?

I've had her about 3 months now.

Originally Posted by Ony'sMom

I think at some point, enough is enough. No, I would never give up my child because of behavioral issues (and my daughter has several issues that would make other people go crazy, trust me), and I don't think that people should be so quick to do it to animals, but at some point, something had to give. What's best for your family sometimes does hurt your heart. I'm with Ron when he said that we shouldn't chastize for surrendering to a shelter, because there's people out there doing way worse things, like dumping, abusing, mutilating animals. Let's save our anger and energy for them.

And that is more or less the point I'm getting at. Even if she was showing the smallest amount of progress, I wouldn't feel the way I'm feeling now. And what makes it worse is that she's absolutely the perfect companion when in the house, or when absolutely no other dogs are around outside. And I wish there was a place where I could take her and let her loose with other dogs off-leash, in a more controlled situation with people that know what they are doing. But there's no such place here that I can find. And I don't trust just letting her loose down at the park, due to people being so lawsuit happy these days. I absolutely detest those type of people.

[KumoES]

I find it very interesting that she seemed to be doing okay off-leash with that other dog... until you appeared. She sounds very posessive/territorial about you as well. Have you tried having someone else walk her/do the fear training with her?

[Lonewolfblue]

Originally Posted by Annamarie

is there a way you can let him meet other dogs off leash but muzzled so he doesn't hurt anyone? i had to do this with my min pin. once he didn't have the option to fight he started to socialize much better.

A muzzle is another option that I've been looking at. And a friend has a dog that is willing to work with us if I did that. I just need to find something she can't slipout of, as she's a pretty good escape artist. Get's out of head halters pretty easy.

Originally Posted by KumoES

I find it very interesting that she seemed to be doing okay off-leash with that other dog... until you appeared. She sounds very posessive/territorial about you as well. Have you tried having someone else walk her/do the fear training with her?

And what is strange is this was not too long after I had got her, and not after all the training we've been going through. I didn't even have her for 2 weeks when this happened. And yes, my trainer has walked her as well, and also another friend walks her now and then too. She does this no matter who walks her.

As for another trainer, that's out of the question. I've looked into other trainers, and because they hold group classes, they WILL NOT accept Betty because of her issues. This is the only trainer that I could find that holds private classes and not groups. She's also worked with dogs like Betty, but not where it is set in so deep. She just finished with a Beagle that was exactly like Betty, but within 2 months, the Beagle was playing with her dogs and no issues at all.

Originally Posted by SMoore

About 2 years ago I was fostering this beautiful Great Pyrenese/Collie mix and tried forever to find her a good home. She was brought back to me 3 different times for fear-aggression. I could handle her but other people were fed up with it.

In any case, I decided to adopt her myself as I was sick of people bringing her back not willing to work with her. It does take time and a lot of patience on your part. It also takes a trainer willing to take the time to help your dog. I got lucky with the trainer I met at Petsmart. We actually became pretty good friends. She started coming over on weekends with her dog (who is deaf) which made it easier because my dog would bark and growl and her dog would just stare at her with a funny look on his face. (she has a lethal white aussie).

Anyhow, it took many steps (and we are still not 100%) but this is what I did.

First i got rid of my prong collar as it did no good and only made the situation worse (it could be different in your case) I also had her slip the prong collar once and can only use it with a dominant dog collar. I bought a head halter (a good one) some of the junk ones out there a dog can easily slip out of.

We would start a good distance away and I would NOT tighten up on the leash. It only gives the dog reason to get tense in my opinion. While she was calm I would keep saying good girl while giving her a little reward.

In the first stage when getting about 10 feet she would start to growl and show teeth. I would put her in a "down stay" and stand over her (not on her) but just over her. I did this as if to say that it's okay and i'm in charge of the situation so that she didn't have to be. She would calm down almost immediately and then I would praise and reward her.

We did this for several weeks and now on walks she will sometimes lunge but all I have to do is tell her down and she will sit and wait patiently for her treat.

I never thought rewarding it would work as she used to just ignore treats and try to go for the other dog. When standing over her it would calm her down a lot. I'm not sure why but it's something my trainer had me start doing.

Also before even bringing another dog into the situation I made sure she had a VERY solid "down" and "down stay" and "sit stay" with distrations. That way I knew she knew what it meant and it made the whole process much easier.

I threw the prong collar out a week ago as I'll probably never need to use it again. I'm not sure how true this is but my trainer dog me that some dogs who are dog-fear aggressive can sometimes try to link the correction with a prong with the other dog and it only makes the situation worse. Especially if you only use the prong collar when other dogs are around. The head collar she didn't mind at all. She walks very well with it on and never tried to get it off. She will walk perfectly on a regular martingale or buckle collar as long as another dog isn't around so the head collar works well in situations where I know other dogs will be nearby.

Anyhow, this is how I dealt with the issue. It may or may not work for you. We still have rough spots here and there but she is a lot easier to control.

Just the other day I was walking her on a buckle collar and someone had their dog off a lead (which drove mine nuts). She slipped her collar I immediately yelled "DOWN!" as loud as I could she turned right to me and dropped. I was pretty impressed and rewarded her greatly for it.

Now she even walks with friends! (she is on the far right)

Sounds like what we are doing. I was using the prong collar with an oversized choke chain for backup, but have currently replaced the choke chain with a Dominant Dog Collar as well. Betty's Sit and Down is very good, and her Stay is getting much better. But standing over her doesn't do anything to calm her down. But overall, sounds like we are doing almost exactly what you did, with sits, downs, stays, and treats and praise.