Crate training/crate chewing

CoopersDad

So after 4 nights of sleeping on the floor by my pooch (with little to no whining) my back decided I needed a bed.
I moved his crate to my bedroom and tried that. NO GO. He freaked out. Started with whining and howling,
then increased to biting/chewing on the wire door and plastic sides. He really worked himself into a frenzy.
Tonight I plan on putting him in the bedroom and closing a couple doors and sleeping in the front room.
I've tried the ticking clock, stuffed toy, tshirt, etc. none of that makes a difference. If Cesar saw him at that
moment, I'm sure he'd classify him as red zone. The only time he stopped was when he was so wore out he just passed
out, then 15 min later he started it back up. This went on for 5 hours until I again made the mistake of laying
down next to him. After about 5 minutes or so he was asleep.

I have 2 questions on this. First off, I had been sleeping on floor near him the previous couple nights, probably 2-3 feet away.
In the bedroom, he was 5-6 feet away and the crate was facing my bed, plus I left a light on. Why would just a couple
feet make the difference between him sleeping peacefully and absolutely losing his mind? Do you think moving rooms and
increasing the distance was too much?

My second question, how concerned should I be that he'll injure himself by chewing on the wire door and plastic sides?
I'd like to think if it started hurting he'd stop, but I also worry that he gets so worked up that he might not even
notice...like the criminal whacked out on pcp.
Maybe this is fairly common and I'm just over reacting, I've just never seen this before. He really acts like he's
stuck in a bear trap and being eaten alive by fire ants.

IMO I HAVE to get back on track with the crate, I just want to do it the right and safe way. And from what I gather is just
letting him work it out on his own (read: not comforting him by laying down next to him).

I would assume he carries on this way when I'm not here, which luckily this last week I've been able to work from home. But
next week I return to work and he'll be in his crate much more.

I was thinking about calling the vet today, but thought I'd ask you all first.

Thanks!

Keechak

have you tryed feeding him in his crate and putting lots of treats in there?

CoopersDad

Tuesday I started feeding in the crate, so now all meals are in there. And yes on treats...first I tried a kong bone with peanut butter, but it wasn't too impressed with that so now I put a nylabone in with him in addition to 4 or 5 treats.
When I started feeding him in the crate, I'd shut the door and less than a minute after finishing, he'd start whining. A couple times he's just wandered into
the crate during the day, he didn't hang out long, but did go in on his own.
Today actually he went in and bumped the door and it swung over like it was closed. He started whining then realized he could just push the door open. Kind of funny.
One thing I do realize is he needs more exercise. I've been oncall this week so I've
been busy (still no excuse though), but last night we played our version of fetch for probably 30 minutes then played with the rope a while not too long before bedtime. Tomorrow we're going to start getting used to a leash so we can start walking. Maybe that will help...along with time in the crate while I'm at work.

Also, last night when there would be a brief moment when he stopped, I would tell him good boy and stuff or even get up and offer a treat, but he had no interest in the treats at that moment, so I just dropped them into the crate.
I assumed that's good right, praising the behavior I want (quiet) even if I have to get out of bed to do it? When he's all hyped up like that, I try not to pay
him any attention, no yelling, looking at, comforting (except when I broke down and laid with him) so as not to reinforce the bad behavior.

Bandits_mom

my dog was the same way he didnt want to be away from us, he would cry, howl, bark just anything to get us to come back to him. Finally we just put him in the crate with some food, water, toys, a pillow and one of our shirts. He went crazy with the barking and howling. We only went right out side the door, we found that he would turn over the water and that wasnt good for everything in his crate would be covered with water. We finally stopped putting food in the crate, for he gets feed before he goes in and when he comes out (depending on how long he stays in the crate while we are gone). Its not good to mix everything up with the crate, for example if the crate is there to keep him in for the time you are gone, you dont want to mix feeding time and being put up or if you were to "punish" him, for whatever reason you dont want to put him in the crate for when you go out. mixing things up can cause them to be confuse. example if he does something bad and you put him in the crate each time when you finally have to leave the house and put him in there he will think he is in trouble again and that isnt good. Dogs are very smart and know how to get their way. If they cry or bark and you come to them they know you always will. It seems mean to just let them bark or howl but it does work. Dogs dont like to be away from there person. Our dog will still bark when we walk out the door, but if we wait and listen with in a few min he stops. He is testing us to see if we will come back in and let him out. You may need to just let him bark or howl until he gets its out of his system. He has to learn that its okay and you will be back for him and he will learn that and knows that you still love him!! I worried so much when i was doing this with my dog that he would not come to me anymore or think i didnt love him anymore but actually when he gets out of the crate now he happy and loving and ready to play. When he is chewing the side of the crate or the gate get a rolled up paper and stand where he cant see you and hit the crate and say NO in a stern voice. we didnt want to do this but its what our vet said would work. He cant see you though, he wont believe that he isnt suppose to be doing it. Also, instead of using the crate, get a big box(one he cant crawl out of or see over the top if he was to stand on his legs and put him in there and take one side and tape it down and leave the other one open and do the whole, smacking the side and saying NO eventually he will know he cant chew and barkin and howling isnt going to get him his way.
Everyone who reads this will say its mean to do what i said but its not, your not actually hitting your dog, your just telling him and NO and the sound of the paper on the side just tells him he isnt suppose to do it. If he keeps crying and howling after about 10-15 min take him back out and show him love. Then in another 10-15 put him back in and do it over again. You can also try when you put him in the box/crate to just shut the door really loud to where he can hear it, this will make him think you left and see how he reacts. Just dont let him see you...if he does this doesnt work. Just keep doing it every so often until he learns.
He crys if he is so far even just a few extra inches because he is so use to you being right next to him. My dog was the same way when i first brought him home i had him right next to the bed where i could keep an eye on him, then i tried to move him to the front of the bed, then in the living room and he didnt like it at all. would keep us up all night. Now he sleeps in the bed, but he is a good bed mate, he just lays there and sleeps until the alarm clock goes off.
Dogs dont like to be alone they will always cry or howl alittle bit but sometimes you have to just leave them in the crate and go about your business, when you get home let him out and love on him and show him you love him. Eventually he will learn that you are coming back and you do love him.
I hope all works out for you.

CoopersDad

Yeah, I understand the crying cause he misses me and it would be different if he cried for a little while then just chilled out, but he doesn't...which I am partially to blame for. It just blows my mind how intense he was getting.
Tonight he'll be at one end of the house and me at the other and I will just let him work it out. I just hope he doesn't hurt himself. I'll also try crating for
brief periods during the day while I'm here.
Thanks for the advice and sharing.

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Bandits_mom

You love him so youre really not to blame . You can also try to put a hot water bottle(like a 2 liter bottle) in his crate with him, it sometimes helps them too! He shouldnt hurt his self, after a while you can go in a check on him and see how he is doing. Dogs do get mad and try revenge, but we still love them. I hope it works out. Mine has to still be in a crate while we arent home since he is in the chewing stage, hopefully by the time he is 1 yrs old(jan 1st) he will be out of it and he can run free while we arent home, but still will prob put him in the crate for while.

CoopersDad

So not a lot has changed since my OP, in regards to his behavior. The past couple nights he's been in the room by himself and I've just let him deal with it. The intensity is still there and duration as far as I can tell. He was sleeping at 3am when I took him out, but when I got up at 6am he was back there throwing a fit.
I've tried to start working on the mental aspect, though much more can be done. In the evenings we've been working on sit, down, accepting the leash, that type stuff. He's picking up on sit/down real well, though mouthing the leash. Hopefully this week we'll start taking walks (maybe that'll help?).
I've been trying to expend some energy by playing with the ball or rope as well but sometimes he just doesn't seem that enthusiastic about it and after a couple throws just sits there looking at it.

Anyway, so I know I need to work him out more, both physically and mentally. I'm working on that. My next question is could this be SA and if so, is putting him in the crate doing more harm? I thought I saw a sticky re: SA and read through it, and he didn't really seem to fit the bill, though I can't remember all the "symptoms" and don't see the thread off hand. He still eats in his crate (door open now) and goes in with very little coaxing, but I have to put the dish as far back as possible or he'll step out and try to stand outside of it and eat. Also I've seen him walk into it on his own, but not to stay, just checks it out and comes right back out.

It just makes me so sad to see him SOOO upset and I want to make sure I'm not being counterproductive. I've had friends say he'll get over it, but right now I can't see that happening and it's breaking my heart.

croll326

I am having the same issue with my pup freaking out when he is crated when we go to work. We are trying to desensitize him to it and it doesnt seem to be working. I dont know if it is just him being a puppy or separation anxiety. I will be keeping a close eye on this thread to see the advise from others. My dog has lost teeth chewing on the metal bars and plastic crate. Ugh.

CoopersDad

Oh jeez! I'm sorry to hear that, course better to loose them now instead of later, but still.

Tonight I took him to see my sister and her kids and we went to the (people) park. He did a lot of chasing the kids and we walked around the track while he took in all the smells. First time being out of the back yard on leash as well and he did pretty good.
I was thinking maybe it would help burn up some energy, but I put him in the crate about 30 min ago and he's been raging for 29 of them. I've even heard some sounds/tones I haven't heard before. He's in full freak mode right now, sigh...

I was in Petsmart today picking up some things and was looking at the pheromone release thingies I'd heard of. Wondering if it's worth dropping the $ for? Anyone have experience? I guess if it helps, every penny is worth it, but if not...
Also saw they have some stress relief chewables, was wondering about those too. The ones I looked at were natural, herbs and stuff, so should be "safe". I dunno.

croll326

You can always try the D.A.P. diffuser or other products they sell. It depends on the dog if they will work or not. Definitely keep the receipt.....Petsmart and Petco are great about returns if stuff doesn't work for your dog. If you have a Burtons Total PEt around stay away from buying things there unless you are 100% sure you are keeping it. Their return policy stinks - NO RETURNS on used items and everything else is 15 days.

You might also want to try Bach's Rescue Remedy for pets....i just orderd it for my pup yesterday. I hope it works.

Olympia

I read where you said you tried the kong with PB, what about yogurt then freeze it!

CoopersDad

No, haven't tried frozen yogurt, I will though.
I'm not sure if this is progress or not, but the brief moments of quite seem to
be increasing slightly. Ever so slightly. After I get him in the crate, he immediately starts whining, then when I leave the room he starts going at it heavy. Then 5-10 min later he'll stop, then 5-10 later he'll start again.

One thing that really surprised me, yesterday I went to go get some lunch (was working from home) and was gone 45-60 min. When I got home he was going at it and he was soaked, his entire under carriage, throat, and legs. Obviously I thought he had peed, but it was slimy...it was saliva! I'm used to seeing it all over the front edge of the crate and the towels being soaked, but that was the first time he actually soaked himself!

Another thing is it's increasingly difficult to get him into the crate. Treats, pb stuffed toy, etc are becoming less effective. He wants them, and he'll stick his head and front feet in, but as I slowly move it further into the crate, he'll back out. I've read/heard many times you shouldn't force them into the crate or they'll associate it as bad, and I haven't yet, but A) at this point, I'm pretty sure he HATES the crate and thinks it's bad, and B) when trying to get him in, I lure till he sticks his head in, then I just box him in to where it's the only place he can go.

Today I picked up some Pet-EZE. Gave one to him and after about 10 min
I put him to bed. He started up right away, but after about 7 min he went quiet. It's been about 40 min now and still quiet. I'm excited about that, but I really don't see it as a solution so much as something to get us by until we
can figure it out.

As of right now, I don't think any amount of treats or toys will fix this. He's just too upset for anything like that to get his mind off it.
Curious if anyone thinks a new/different crate might help? The one I have now is the plastic travel type rated up to 20 lbs I believe. I had a box in the back so not to give him too much room (but enough), but have since removed it since he just moved it around anyway. I'm wondering if a wire crate might make a difference? I see a lot of talk that the plastic ones are more "den like", but it's almost as if this pup doesn't like dens!

D'oh...not sure if it was the thunder or he just recharged, but he's up now...and raising holy hell.

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