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I've just started raising an 8 week old jindo pup, but my main concern is his biting. When he's calm he won't bite much but when he's excited he LOVES to bite on my socks, ankles, hands etc. A few times it's enough to break the skin.
I don't know what I need to do to make him stop.
I've tried the yelping technique (I shriek out) but he just keeps going. And after that I stop responding to him, place him in his room for about 10 min. I open the door and he'll start doing it again.
I don't think this can be instantly changed, but I really don't think this method is working. He chews on his toys aplenty but seems to like nipping people even more.
I even had to cut outside play short because he wouldn't let go of my laces.
Most of you won't be familiar, so let me just explain this is a hunting breed, with close primitive ties and therefore I think he will need a stronger method to get through.
Yelping anytime the teeth touches skin or clothing is only half of the technique. You also have to stop all play immediately. If that means YOU have to leave the room (he doesn't leave the room you do) then, so be it. He wants to play with you/wants your attention...removing yourself shows him that his playmate won't interact with him when he bites. This also means no talking to him and not even looking at him when he does this.
Am I supposed to yelp and then isolate+ ignore him by either leaving myself or putting him alone in a room... OR am I supposed to just stand still and ignore him?
I've tried both and neither work. He especially attacks my laces with such force he's almost ripping them off.
I've also tried leaving the room myself. I drag myself out while he's still biting and he just follows along.
Last edited by Siye; 09-12-2009 at 06:38 PM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
The Yelp should (repeat...should) let the pup know that biting is wrong/too hard. If the pup doesn't get the message (you'll know he understands when he backs away) then, you stop all play and walk away. If he tries to attack your feet stomp your foot on the floor before he can reach you...startle him...make him stop in his tracks. Continue to leave.
When you come back is the really important part...what does he have to do to get your attention, get his playmate back? Some folks teach the dog to get a ball for a game of fetch, a toy or a tug for playtime. For petting/cuddling/affection/attention some teach the dog to sit politely....again, your choice but, the point is to teach the dog exactly what he has to do to earn your attention.
I've made very little progress and I've tried several different methods.
Isolating myself or the dog by either leaving or putting the dog in a small confined area (room) has had little effect. Isolating the dog in a room seemed to have a working effect (he hated it and would whine like crazy) but little difference would occur afterwards.
Redirecting his biting with a toy is something I do often as well. It works, but he may choose to chew on the hands a few more times before going back to the toy.
Yelping definitely does not work. I just yelled out NO twice (once as a warning) and either removed myself or the pup.
The only encouraging thing is that his biting seems to be controlled. He def bites us softer than his toys (but not our clothes) and only makes the mistake occasionally when he's too excited. But he's a medium sized breed and his play bites can still hurt.
P.S. When I'm rubbing his tummy occasional he will whip his head around and try to bite. I don't like this (I feel he is trying to assert his dominance) and would like some tips as well.
Jindo are very sensitive to harsh treatment and can become fearful...in fact I would bet that his belly rub sessions stress him out and that is where the nip comes from. Give up the dominance talk and work with the behaviour itself..does he OFFER you his belly or are you rolling him over for a rub? How long before he tries to nip? You are probably pushing him beyond his threshold.
As for the above advice from ambleday...this is not a flame, but a warning that using your hands to cause discomfort near the mouth CAN turn your dog into someone who cannot be handled safely. Your vets, groomers etc will thank you if you do not use this method.
When I come across a pup that will not respond to the yelp and remove attention technique I use a leash settle. Pup on leash, gets too wild, leash is put under your shoe so that it is short enough that pup cannot stand up comfortably. Wait. EVENTUALLY (this is an exercise in patience for YOU too) he will lie down. No rewards, no talking, just "no fun"...hold for ten seconds or so (if you can get it that long) and then release him and toss a toy or have him sit or whatever...
I also recommend you train the settle at other times...when you are watching tv reading the paper etc put him in a settle next to you for a couple of minutes..gradually building up the time spent in the settle.
You will find this a very helpful exercise for teaching a down stay AND for him learning to turn off his jets on cue. Be aware though, that he still needs to get his jollies out...so be sure to play toy toss, tug or have fun training sessions and let him have his occasional puppy zoomies! Feed him in a kong so he has to work for his meals and this will reduce his energy level as well.
If he grabs your pants etc get a tug toy and teach him to play it. Good luck
Cracker - Yes, because you need to be careful with this breed, I'm really trying to avoid any form of physical punishment with the pup. I tried shutting his muzzle closed with my hand for a little while but he would only retaliate and bite back harder. Really no point in using that method.
The belly rub appears to be consensual. He'll be lying down and when I come up to him and start rubbing, he'll roll over to make it easier. I've never rolled him over myself. He tries to snap at my hands but they don't appear to be forceful. Sometimes he'll stay still for a bit.. others he'll just try to bite as soon as I start rubbing.
He gets ALOT of chew time out of inanimate objects. Sometimes I wonder if that's his only way of having fun besides eating. ^^;;; I have the usual rope toys, balls, plush.. and he loves roughin up mats too.
The thing I noticed... he doesn't really lick very much. I know he's just using his mouth to say hi, but I just need to communicate that it isn't appropriate. Should I continue and try to get his bites to soften more, or try to eliminate the biting completely??
Oh yes, how would growling work in response? Has anyone tried that???
Last edited by Siye; 10-01-2009 at 01:52 PM.
Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Just a couple of bits to add. The timeout doesn't need to be more than a couple of minutes. The dog will likely long forget why he's on a timeout if it's more than that. But more importantly, a shorter timeout affords more opportunity to pair the consequence.
Often when I read someone saying yelping doesn't work, it has more to do with the handler's lack of persistence than it does the actual technique. So keep that attitude in mind with whatever method you choose, you have to be more persistent than the dog for it to work. And, the 'a-ha' moment can come quickly after a lot of seemingly endless frustration.
So keep that attitude in mind with whatever method you choose, you have to be more persistent than the dog for it to work. And, the 'a-ha' moment can come quickly after a lot of seemingly endless frustration.
Yup. Brenda Aloff says in her book "Get Connected with Your Dog.." that you need to out last the dog.
Yelping doesn't work because he just ignores it.. or sometimes bites back harder (increased excitement most likely). He just continues on biting.
When I isolated him, it was a few minutes. I would give a warning no, then a second no. I isolated him quickly for atleast 2-3 min first go. If I let him out and he starts biting again (happens frequently) I say no again and then isolate him up to 5 min.
These time outs happened atleast 10 times a day for a week and nothing much has changed. :/
Leather work gloves and slip on rubber-boots will eliminate the hand/ankle biting pain. This will get you through the needle sharp teeth problem which do hurt if your not protected.
No force used for this problem (trying to close pup's mouth)because he is a puppy and I will repeat what I have said many times, puppies like babies can do no wrong.
Yelping doesn't work because he just ignores it.. or sometimes bites back harder (increased excitement most likely). He just continues on biting.
If you're trying to correct the biting after it's already happened you're doing it the hard way. It's much easier to stop it BEFORE it happens. By now, you know when he's going to bite....don't let him.
Quote:
When I isolated him, it was a few minutes. I would give a warning no, then a second no. I isolated him quickly for atleast 2-3 min first go. If I let him out and he starts biting again (happens frequently) I say no again and then isolate him up to 5 min.
These time outs happened atleast 10 times a day for a week and nothing much has changed. :/
The time out itself doesn't fix the problem. When he came out of the time-out he gave you a NEW behavior...he didn't immediately charge out of the crate and bite you did he?.....he stood there...looked at you...wagged his tail......followed you.....he did something nice besides biting. That's what gets your praise, treats and attention....not the biting. If you skipped that training step, you might as well skip the timeout.
I'm reading through everything but I have a question.... the play biting.. will it just go away on its own?
I'm hearing mixed opinions on this... so I don't know what to believe.
About my pup biting right after the time out... it will usually be something like he looks at me.. then targets my socks/shoes and start biting again. When my hands are to my sides, alot of the time he'll jump up to bite as well.
No, the play biting will only get worse.
When you see his head drop to bite your shoes or ankles or you see him getting ready to jump for your hands...bull rush him. Invade his space before he invades yours. Yes, startle him into stopping in his tracks. Now comes the praise for standing calmly.
NILF should be done from day 1 and it's never too late.
He's about 3.5 months now and close to 30 pounds (how he has gained 3/5s of his total body weight I do not know).
The biting is well worse.
I had one amazing breakthrough day a couple weeks ago (yelping would work) and he would immediately just lick and cease his biting. But after that one day his behaviour returned to normal.
He's constantly nibbling on hands which usually isn't TOO bad, but rarely when he's really excited and snapping + jumping at the same time he aims for the face (esp when I'm sitting or kneeling over) and teeth grazing my face has been pretty scary (although no injuries).
I tried the leash technique. Once though he was acting so crazy with it shortened that he panicked and almost strangled himself. I took the leash off immediately but he looked immensely hurt and frightened and wouldn't even come near me for awhile.
I've been constantly redirecting his mouth to toys. It works most of the time but now less and less. I put a toy in front of his face, he'll just avoid it and start chewing on my hands. He just finds it immensely conforting. The biting is best when he's sleepy since he doesn't have the energy to bite but only constantly licks my hands (Yes, I praise him when he licks, of course).
I'm constantly hearing that I should wait it out, but I'm troubled. Soon he won't be puppy sized anymore and puppy teeth will be replaced with adult ones.
There are only two parts to this....Biting/nibbling is not allowed/it's stopped before it even starts. That's the easy part.
The 2nd part is the harder one....redirecting to another activity. If he can't use his teeth to get your attention/some playtime....what does he have to do?....get a ball, a toy, a tug? You have to teach him how to play a different way (no teeth on skin).
And, no, you don't wait this out.....the training continues.
I've just started raising an 8 week old jindo pup, but my main concern is his biting. When he's calm he won't bite much but when he's excited he LOVES to bite on my socks, ankles, hands etc. A few times it's enough to break the skin.
I don't know what I need to do to make him stop.
I'm a new dog owner myself but have seen tons of videos and such on dog obedience.
There is postive and negative re-enforcement training. From what I understand, both work, but many times one will work best for a certain situation.
For things like biting and humping that you REALLY don't want the dog to do, I would recommend negative re-enforcement obedience. From what I understand it is the most effective way to get results but you DONT want to use it on everything. Only the most serious things you don't want the dog to be doing.
Negative re-enforcement would mean the dog is assocating something bad will happen (usually pain) when it does something you don't want.
What a lot of people use are electronic shock collars becuase it uses negative re-enforcement without it being traced back to the owner. So you can play with the dog, your dh can watch, and when he bites, he gets a zap and you can just keep playing. The dog wont know it was you. He just knows when he bites he gets a shock and doesn't like it so he'll quickly make the association.
I saw this BBC movie featuring this dog obedience expert specializing in protection to do work in Bangledesh. The forest over there has tigers that were going into the villiages and eating people. So they got local stray dogs to be trained as watched dogs. The dogs were naturally out of control and wild. Man. You should have seen the negative re-enforcement. She took the dog, BIG DOG, grabbed it by the scruff and punched it in the lips i think. She knew how to hit the dogs to get them in line. Another one she punched REALLY hard. Sure enough the dogs saw her as pack leader and it was amazing how they were transforned. At first they were fighting with each other and out of control.
Now of course don't hit the dog in a home situation. I read on a site you can twist their ear which is a common method. I'm sure there's other things you can do the dog wont like. I would probably just get the collar incase the problem returns.
And if you do use the negative re-enforcement obedience, it will most likely work, but don't be tempted to use it for other things because too much and they can develop a scaredy personality. Only use it for the 1 or 2 essential things you do not want the dog doing.
We're really lucky, our puppy doesn't bit at all. I hope things work out. Keep us please
Do not take the above poster's advice. PUPPIES should be taught their manners with positive reinforcement or negative punishment (leash timeouts, crate timeouts and management). If your puppy is easily exciteable any sort of harsh treatment will INCREASE his excitement and therefore his nibbling/biting/leaping etc. Jindo are known for being tough but sensitive dogs and you do NOT want a fearful Jindo. Period.
If the stickie called "the bite stops here" here in the forum is not working than you may have to tweak it a bit, but punishment really isn't the answer.
You want books?
'The Power or Positive Dog Training" by Pat Miller
"The Puppy Whisperer" by Paul Owens
'Before and After Getting your Puppy" by Ian Dunbar (I believe it is available for download at www.dogstardaily.com ) and some of his stuff is above in the stickies as well.
