Teaching pup bite inhibition...

mikedavid00

Well to each their own. You recommend using the crate as a correctional tool, yet many people say never to use the crate for correctional purposes. There's always differening viewpoints on how to train dogs.

I believe pain and negative re-enforcement to be natural to dogs. It just shouldn't be used very often or unless you have to. Correcting 1 single behaviour I doubt would do any damage.

If I was in that situation, I would get a shock collar. The shock doesn't hurt the dog per say, but rather feels uncomfortable to the dog. You can set the level of the shock intensity so it's not strong.

I would also say the puppy is the best time to teach it not to bite. If it continues, the dog may get given away and keep coming back to the shelter.
My old boss actually gave away his addopted dog because it would bite them. He did this after his wife got pregnant and the dog could not be trusted around children. So the dog ends back up at the shelter twice only to be given away to someone else. People will never be upfront of why they are giving their dogs away. This is why I dislike shelters.

So for these sort of 'bigger' problems, sure I would recommend negative re-enforcement to correct the behavior. Time-outs and such I just don't feel would be effective at all.

Just my 2 pennies..

Cracker

Hi MikeDavid.

I do see where you are coming from and agree that biting and bite inhibition is paramount in puppy training to have a safe adult dog.
But I want to clarify a couple of points:
Using the crate as time outs is not meant to be done angrily or as an overt punishment, it is to be used when the puppy is getting worked up, you lead him to the crate, give him something to do in there ( a chew bone etc) and then leave him for a minute or two. The actual punishment is YOU leaving the pup, teaching him that interaction with the human is dependent on good behaviour. This can also be attained by tethering the pup to a piece of furniture and leaving the room for a moment. I totally agree that using the crate as overt punishment (BAD DOG GET IN YOUR CRATE!) is a sure way to create a problem with the crate itself.

Also, even trainers who use punishment/correction in their training do not recommend using correction collars on young puppies. Most collar training is done AFTER a full training has been done with positive reinforcement and they are pretty darn sure the dog KNOWS the cues, usually at older than 6 months of age. The puppy in the OP's post is only about 4 months old. Respect for the human is built through training and relationship...if you start getting physical too soon with a developing puppy they can learn that YOU are scary, your hands are scary etc...this can really mess up a lot of things.

Sure pain is a part of life, much of an animals life is spent learning through what I call "environmental corrections"..you touch a hot burner, you get burned. But in training dogs much of what they learn about being in OUR world (which is three quarters of what they need to know, based on what WE want) is learned through repetition, consistency and rewards for good behaviour. Most of the behaviours we want in a dog are not their natural state of being so it's a lot of work to teach a dog not to use their mouths, not to treat humans like dogs, to walk on a loose leash, to NOT chase that cat across the street etc. A stressed organism (human as well) does not learn well if they are stressed. Punishment works, reinforcement works..but if you want a PUPPY who knows NOTHING at this point to learn, the lower the stress the better the learning curve.

I hope this has clarified these things for you.

Your two cents is certainly welcome, but do be careful when recommending things like in your post...there are a lot of people that read these but don't participate in the discussion who may take it that it is okay to try and train your dog by the examples from that film you mentioned or by putting an ecollar on a 3 month old puppy. Neither bode well for the dog's life.

Labsnothers

Listen to TooneyDog. Don't expect a puppy to give up such an instinctive behavior very quickly or without persistent corrections.

Young Labs, which I know best, and other puppies tend to very bad about biting. You see a litter of them, and all the ones that are awake are biting another one or themselves. I am not even sure they realize that when they are alone, if they quit biting, they would quit being bitten. At 3 to 4 months they are getting their adult teeth, and it seems they spend every waking moment biting or chewing. One thing you can do at that stage is to knot and wet a piece of cloth. Then freeze it. The cooling will soothe the gums. Only let the puppy have it when you are there to watch it. I maintain a Lab's favorite chew toy is another Lab. Otherwise they settle for any person they can. They keep hoping to find one that won't yelp, jerk their hand away, and leave.

You just have to keep on correcting them, hundreds of times, not dozens. Provide sturdy, safe toys such as Kongs and Nylabones. Avoid things they can chew pieces off and choke on them. Keep them away from electrical cords. Crates are essential for most young Labs and other dogs.

I view biting during belly rubs as the short attention span wanting to do something else. Belly rubs are important.

''Elevation for small puppies: Sit on the floor and gently put your hands around your pup's middle, below his front legs, and lift him up. He is facing you. Hold him for 15 seconds. Repeat until he no longer struggles. If he is past 10-12 weeks, lift his front feet off the ground, but don't pick him up.

Cradling for small puppies: Hold your puppy gently on his back, as you would cradle a small baby. If he struggles, hold him firmly until he quiets for 10-15 seconds. With larger pups, you can do this as your sit on the floor, with your pup between your legs.

Quiet lying down: Place your pup on the floor on his side, with all 4 legs pointing away from you. Use your hands on his neck/shoulder area and middle, to hold him in this position. When he is quiet, praise him. Lengthen the time that you keep him quietly in this position. When he accepts this position well, handle his paws and muzzle, while keeping him quiet.''

The quotes mean this isn't my original work. It is copied from my Puppy Raising Manual. I have long used these or minor variations of them, and they are very effective. You may want to give him a belly rub while he is on his back too. Helps bonding. There is a big difference between him rolling over and demanding a belly rub, and you choosing a time to roll him over and rub his belly. The latter cements your place as pack leader.

Elana55

Keep this in mind first and foremost on the rest of this poster's advice. NO first hand experience..

The most effective way to stop a behavior is NOT to use punishment but to teach the dog an alternative behavior, such as "LIE DOWN" and have the dog do THAT when he is doing something you do not want. Replace inappropriate behavior with something you do want.

IF you get the timing right. IF your dog understands it is the BEHAVIOR being punished and not something else. IF your dog understands a cue CLEARLY and is CLEARLY disobeying that cue. IF your dog does not associate the behavior with the aversive he may become fearful and suspicious of YOU.

The worst advice I have read in a long time. DO NOT DO THIS. YOU COULD BE BADLY BITTEN AND HURT.

I had a class last week (I am there observing) and the instructor placed an E collar on a dog that is aggressive. The dog did not associate the e collar with the behavior and, instead, associated it with the thing he was aggressing AT and the AGGREESSION ESCALATED. This dog BIT three times.. and he had NEVER bitten before.

The stim level was right.. everything was "right" except the dog's association. IF you put an e collar on a dog that is biting and zap him while he is play biting you, he may immediately stop the play biting and bite you for real instead.

E Collars are not for people who are as admited by this poster as being:
Why would ANYONE post this? It has nothing to do with 'pack leader.' This has to do with instilling fear. It is called BULLYING.

Remember again:
Great. Now we have advice to create horrendous pain in an animal we want as a pet.. as a companion.. with the ONLY intent being to cause huge pain to the dog.

DO NOT do this.

Geeze.. you have a PUPPY... not some 3,000 pound fire breathing beast from Satan...

Please get professional help and do not do the practices suggested here by the MikeDavid poster who is as experienced as this:

mikedavid00

Hey now

It's unfair to the owner to only give positive re-enforcement techniques to correct this behavior. She should be aware of the other ways to correct this behavior so she can make her own descision.

Any first chapter of any dog obedience book or video will explain negative vs. postivie re-enforcement. Usually people will take sides on how they prefer to train. Not me though as I think both are good and work if used properly.

The real truth of the debate is that both are good and both work. Some work better in some situations than others. Some training might take longer than others. Also breeds and temperment make a difference where some dogs like a Bichon might do well with positive re-enforcement and a wolf might need negative.

Also, negative re-enforcement is natural to dogs, cats, and other animals actually. It's the most natural form of obedience.

Here is a pro trainer showing how to train with a shock collar. They feature a dog that has bitten a child and is a bit out of control so they will use 'remote collar' training.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zgFTXmJKw4

Under her circumstances, considering the breed and severaty of the problem (breaking skin and full strenth bites on clothing) and considering the age, I would personally get a shock collar and use it right when the dog starts to bite. Turn down the shock to a low setting. It wont hurt the dog, but he wont like the shock.

I do not think positive re-enforcement training is called for under her circumstances.

Of course, I admit my opinion is worth ---> 2 cents

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sparkle

Having raised 3 litters of jindo's from 3 different vastly different circumstances, raised many litters of other breeds/mixes (that many say you do not use corrections on or at least if you do you cannot accomplish anything but no good). I would repectfully disagree with such absolutes and generalizations. I have started at about 8 weeks teaching all the pups I have help raise bite inhibition.... and often use/d corrections (although not exclusively) to which never came back to bite me in the scheme of things..

WOW! I do not know how to respond to a absolute except that I have absolutely experienced something different that goes against the grain concerning this issue and the use of corrections

.. I wonder what other dogs or the mother dog does to find resolution with a mouthy pup/dog in various situations?

I bet there are many different possibilities. The best way and the most effective way can be for some... simply the most effective way in which to solve the issue. Sometimes the most effective way for different circumstances and situiations is not always a same way or the most popular way.

The only material suggestion that I could provide at this point considering what has been said in the do's and DON'Ts is that I would suggest one should be leary of taking what anyone says for the gospel truth one way or the other

For example I would NEVER use a shock collar on a 8 week old pup....
Does this mean that it would not or could not work? NO..

Cracker

Sparkle..am I gonna have to preface everything I say now?
Jindo ARE known for being tough AND sensitive. I have met a few, worked with a few but do not have the extensive experience you have. But this point is not really important in the posts anyway. REGARDLESS of breed, taking a puppy, AN INFANT ANIMAL and using extreme corrections like an ecollar or twisting the puppies ear to work on bite inhibition is just plain wrong.

I also believe, in MY opinion, that our dogs KNOW we are humans, not dogs, so punishment meant to mimic a muzzle correction from a mother dog is not useful. I also believe that dogs need to learn that human hands are SAFE as this helps to bring about a safer dog. But that is MY opinion.

Elana, thank you for being so direct in your post.

sparkle

You are entitled to say anything in whatever fashion you choose and should you feel second thoughts about what or how you say them it is not my burden to bare. However your usage of the word extreme injects a wide range of inuindo for debate and opinion.


Dogs also know I would speculate that tools such as a GL, prong collar, and choke collar and any other device although designed to administer aversives similiar to a mother or another dog is not the same either ...although they have benefits in gaining various resolution for certain issues as a correction.

I hear that argument time and again however and It has been proven incorrect ( corrections verses who administers them) in terms of possibilties to solving specific issues with the use of corrections.

I think it would be safe for me to assume from all that you write that you probably feel that under most circumstances the use of aversive corrections on any dog cannot work, will not work, should not be used, and are wrong.

.

Not to sound rude but just too many generaliztions and emotion based jargon (FEEL SAFE AND WRONG for example) for me to sift thru for any further comment. I would much easier deal with /welcome someone calling me a liar or challenging me to prove what I have said then putting so much energy into pointing out/challenging people when they come across as so one sided and absolute. As far as ones experience goes (in my opinion) wether extensive or not it depends on the issue and any inaccuracies that can be proven in statements that one may project ....as to how much value can be placed on it.

As long as you believe in what you do and say then that is the important thing at the moment regardless of what anyone else thinks.

Cracker

Emotion based jargon?

http://companionanimalsolutions.com/...isk-to-owners/

My opinions are based on research, science and experience. I do get 'emotional' about how people train their dogs and there is nothing wrong with that..the training methods I recommend are the least apt to cause fallout and on an internet forum where we cannot directly access or view the dogs behaviour and the environment, it is the safest type of training that can be used, both for the dogs and for the owners, who are OFTEN not of the handling experience you and I may have.

Using an ecollar on a 2 month old puppy is not extreme?


.

Not sure what this sentence is saying...can you clarify this for me? I THINK you are saying that GL, etc, are using aversives similar to a muzzle correction or scruff that a mother dog would do...I agree. But it's still not your HANDS doing the aversive correction.

Again, what are you saying here (the sentence is awkward)? What argument do you mean specifically?

You'd rather me call you a liar? Hmm. I have to say this is the first time I've been called "one sided and absolute". So, as much as you have tried NOT to sound rude....

.......

sparkle

I have read all that stuff from both/all sides time and again in dozens of different ways and continue to do so....and have my own experiences..I was/worked with scientists in corporate America for 11 years and do know something about it. Does my science background make my opinion the truth? I would think not and the same would apply to everyone and everything else concerning who holds the card of absolute truth.

Also worked with a very famous Dolphin trainer for a very short time who recently was one of the top trainers for the military who has told me things that contridict what some other famous dolphin trainers say if that means anything...which it may not depending on ones agenda to perspective.

I often refer to pointing out that scientists once thought the world to be flat untill another one discovered it was not.

my previous posts addressed all of the issues in your last post to include a what if.... concerning the shock collar.

mikedavid00

I think there are a lot of emotional issues surrounding negative re-enforcement training and yes people take sides based on emotional discharge. I think this happens when "people think dogs are little people with fur on them rather than animals". (that last sentance I got off a dog training video on youtube.. the director of a dog shelter herself said this - not me). I guess people think using a shock collar or prong collar is the same as putting this on a human child and can't bare the thought.

The shock from an remote collar doesn't feel painful. It feels akward and the dog doesn't like it.

There are tons of videos on Youtube where people are putting the collar on themselves and horsing around with the shock collars.

There is also a dog trainer who does personalized behavioral training in BC who specializes in remote collars. She even has a DVD all about training with remote collars. She specializes in training dogs that have a history of biting and are unruly.

Under the OP's circumstances and seing as she's not a dog breeder/trainer etc, I would surely use negative re-enforcement for the biting because those behaviors if not corrected can result in the dog ending up in the shelter and being passed around its whole life.

Of course my opinion is worth 0.02

sparkle

I apologize and this is why I have no friends in the dog world ..but having used remote e-collars that have the capability of administering shock (continuous,pulse, nick, or tap at various levels ), tones/sound/intercom, vibration, and chemicals and know many people who do/have ....I would disagree that all the electric voltages/amperage administered to dogs by such devices in certain or some cases are painless and especially discomforting which also can induce stress at some point along with result in negative backlash behaviors and associations...

I am not however dictating/saying/implying that YOU or everyone else uses the collar in this manner.


I know for a fact the posibilities to cause pain and discomfort depending on how you/one can use them, end up using them, or intend to use them for a threshold level correction or punishment. How does one measure the discomfort or pain a dog might feel?

So again for me another illustration of the complexities in communicating.....with such absolutes.

I think I had better take a long break and leave such endless debates for others who feel a need to dive in the waters.

Elana55

Until you, MikeDavid, have learned to successfully USE the techniques you are recommending, I think it is dangerous to recommend them.. ESPECIALLY on an internet forum where someone else could quickly segue from correction to cruel.

Experienced, professional dog trainers who are more correction based do not suggest specific techniques such as you have on this forum for that very reason.

I have a lot of tools in my dog training tool box from food rewards and a clicker to a shock collar. IMO the situation as described by the original poster does not warrant going all the way to the far end of the tool box and reaching for a shock collar or an ear pinch. That is far too extreme for a dog of this age, regardless of breed.. again from the OP's presentation and from not meeting the dog personally.

None of us have seen the puppy or the owner or seen the two interacting. Honestly, with out being there, it is impossible to make extreme reco0mmendations. We might look at this situation and might see that this is truly that one in ten million puppy that needs something extreme but I doubt it. We also might see something so simple, so minor that the owner could do to fix the issue that we all would be laughing (dog and owner included).

E Collar work is not something you read about and then do.. it is something that really needs to be taught by a professional who is already in that loop. I would expand this discussion to most aversive corrections and especially as those corrections increase in severity.

For this reason and for the damage that can be done if not done correctly (reading the dog), I do not recommend them on any internet forum.

If the issue is so severe the owner is considering an E collar or other severe aversive, it is time for the owner to go to a professional who can see the dog and make an ascertian.

Of course, the issue at that point is going to be finding a good, trustworthy, honest and fair dog trainer or behaviorist. That can be harder sometimes than figuring out the dog.

sparkle

T H A N K Y O U for taking the time to explain this in such a straight forward yet elinquent way... I am not one generally that hops on the cheerleading bandwagon but this is one of those rare cases.

Thank you Elana55 so such much a unusally thoughtful reply. I hope to follow your example however unlikely that might be.

wvasko

WOW,
I've said this many times, biting puppies is one of the silliest and least important of any problems that I have faced with real live pups/dogs. I'm not gonna get into venting about the research/youtube/video gurus because in the big scheme of things it's just not that important. Everybody has their own way of accomplishing their goals.

I am an old Star Trek fan and you should see the Enterprise that I built and have been cruising around space in. It was easy, I read a few books and watched the weekly program and had it built in 12 days.

An e-collar on an 8 week old puppy is the same way I potty broke my kid whenever he had an accident in diaper, I shocked him, since he was a lot smarter than any 8 week old pup I ever met it only took a week. I read the book "Potty Breaking For Dummies" He was fine as he grew up, of course he stuttered a lot and spent 6 yrs in 5th grade but all was good.

I start real live pups/dogs from 4.5 months up to 2 years, when I stop calling them pups and a lot of the younger pups have bad habits of hand biting and chewing biting on the leads and barking etc. 10 minutes 1st workout is done and so is the biting.

sparkle

Thats another interesting way of putting it wvasko I always enjoy and can appreciate a tongue-in-cheek example myself.LOL


I want to be clear on my only issue/point of contention to all that has been said and the manner in which I responded. I certainly do not want to seem supportive of using a shock collar on a puppy of this age (regardless of breed).


"
PUPPIES should be taught their manners with positive reinforcement or negative punishment (leash timeouts, crate timeouts and management). If your puppy is easily exciteable any sort of harsh treatment will INCREASE his excitement and therefore his nibbling/biting/leaping etc. Jindo are known for being tough but sensitive dogs and you do NOT want a fearful Jindo. Period."

I have used hand corrections for 8 week old and older jindo pups for biting/teeth usage on human flesh effectively and on many other breeds and ages of dogs for that matter.

Maybe I was too sensitive in my reaction
after having stepping back/out and taking a less E M O T I O N A L look. I sometimes am too quick to react to anything that I feel is misleading and it is one of my faults.

Cracker if you are listening
I apologize ...

I think you offer some great advice in (most )cases. One day maybe you will become perfect like me.

Elana55

Thanks but it would all work out much better if I could proof my own typing....

If you follow me there are a few things you need to know... if I am in line at the supermarket it is guaranteed the person ahead of me will need a price check for an obscure, unmarked item AFTER you have unloaded fully half of your grocery cart...

...And I deal with a LOT of poop (guvmint job) so you need to step high.

Meanwhile, I am off to Zoom around in space on WVasko's Star ship. I always wanted to do things at Warp 8, but I figured I was too old. Now I see Wvasko doing it so that means I can too!

Beam me up Scotty!

mikedavid00

Again those are just personal viewpoints and opinions. The eCollar being cruel is just your own personal opinion. If they were cruel they would not be used or not be legal for sale regardless of personal viewpoints.

I was just saying what I would do if I had the problem of the OP.

Yes they come with instructions that you can follow. The key is in the shock timing and strength to correct he behavior. Lots of videos showing remote collar training.

I stated clearly that I'm a new dog owner and that my opinion was worth 2 cents. It's unfair that some people only want their opiniosn heard and not the opinions of others. That is a typical practice that goes on in 'other countries' that we should not take on over here.

My old boss gave his dog back to the shelter due to biting issues. He used his wife being pregnant as the excuse. So twice it's been to the shelter because the biting was never under control.

All I'm saying is there is not a single way to correct his behavior. This is just your personal opinions. You can go online and find all the experts using negative re-enforcement to correct biting.

Heck, if you call an expert for this problem, the chances are good that they might use negative re-enforcement like that one in Florida in Youtube he'll slap the jaw shut like he did in the video. It doesn't hurt but causes a vibration in the skull that the dog does not like.

I'm just saying there's other options out there because what she is trying is not working. She's keeps coming back asking for help and since nothing is working, I recommened negative re-enforcement.

If you have personal opinions that you disagree with these legal, natural, and used methods for obedience then that's fine.

But you guys shouldn't be the only one allowed to have an opinion on this topic.

I would personally bypass the behavioral expert (due to $) and get the collar and learn to use it properly to train the pup not to bite. Hopefully he'll learn not to bite and wont bite again.

She can decide what she wants to do after hearing both opinions.

But or course, I'm a new dog owner and haven't had this problem so my opinion isn't worth much.

Elana55

If you re-READ what I wrote I did not say an E Collar was cruel or that aversives were cruel. I said that they could segue from correction to cruel...

For that reason AND because NONE OF US have SEEN THE DOG, it is poor practice to recommend such actions as "the answer."

IF the OP needs to go that route, they also need a professional's advice in doing so.

wvasko

MichaelDavid00

What your opinion is worth is still open for discussion. If as a new dog owner you have no dog training experience it will be open for discussion for a very long time.

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