Help. Crating training for first time owner

Chuckles · 09-20-2008, 02:38 PM

Hi guys, first time poster. I read a lot of threads on the board and nobody seems to be having the same problems I am so I am starting a new thread.
I adopted a Beagle mix last month and, at the advice of many of my dog-owning friends, decided on crate training.
She is about 8 months old, 23lbs, spayed, and got a clean bill of health from the vet when I adopted her. I don't know whether the previous owner house trained her or not, but I have made some progress in training her over the past week. She now knows to sit on command and when I take her out, she almost always goes #1 and/or #2.

Now my problem is she is still having accidents inside the house in and out of the crate, and I can't really nail down how long she is able to hold it. Sometimes she can hold it overnight for 6-7 hours no problem, during the day, she can hold it 4 hours sometimes. But there are times when she pees inside the crate after only 2 hours. Other times, after she pees outside, I praise her and give her a treat, and as a reward, let her loose inside the house for a little instead of putting her back in the crate right away, but she would find a spot on the carpet and pee again after only 15 minutes or so. I do clean up all mess religiously with Nature's Miracle, so odor should not be the source of her problem. The crate is not too big either, she has to lie down diagonally to be comfortable.
No #2 inside the house or crate yet, so I am very thankful for that.

I am just not sure why her "schedule" is so random, shouldn't a 8-month-old be able to hold a little longer than 15 minutes or even 2 hours? Or do I just have to be more patient. Any tips or hints would be greatly appreciated.

PeppersPop · 09-20-2008, 03:23 PM

How many times a day do you feed her? Does she have access to water in the crate? Does she tell you when she needs to go? Do you take her out at set times or set intervals or neither/both?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckles

Hi guys, first time poster. I read a lot of threads on the board and nobody seems to be having the same problems I am so I am starting a new thread.
I adopted a Beagle mix last month and, at the advice of many of my dog-owning friends, decided on crate training.
She is about 8 months old, 23lbs, spayed, and got a clean bill of health from the vet when I adopted her. I don't know whether the previous owner house trained her or not, but I have made some progress in training her over the past week. She now knows to sit on command and when I take her out, she almost always goes #1 and/or #2.

Now my problem is she is still having accidents inside the house in and out of the crate, and I can't really nail down how long she is able to hold it. Sometimes she can hold it overnight for 6-7 hours no problem, during the day, she can hold it 4 hours sometimes. But there are times when she pees inside the crate after only 2 hours. Other times, after she pees outside, I praise her and give her a treat, and as a reward, let her loose inside the house for a little instead of putting her back in the crate right away, but she would find a spot on the carpet and pee again after only 15 minutes or so. I do clean up all mess religiously with Nature's Miracle, so odor should not be the source of her problem. The crate is not too big either, she has to lie down diagonally to be comfortable.
No #2 inside the house or crate yet, so I am very thankful for that.

I am just not sure why her "schedule" is so random, shouldn't a 8-month-old be able to hold a little longer than 15 minutes or even 2 hours? Or do I just have to be more patient. Any tips or hints would be greatly appreciated.

Chuckles · 09-20-2008, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeppersPop

How many times a day do you feed her? Does she have access to water in the crate? Does she tell you when she needs to go? Do you take her out at set times or set intervals or neither/both?

I feed her twice a day, 6AM and 6PM, a little more than a cup of food each time in accordance to the instruction of the food manufacturer. I initially put a water bowl inside the crate, but all she did was play with water while inside and splash it everywhere, so now I leave the water outside and supervise her drinking when she comes out (yes, it is necessary). She doesn't give me a clear signal before she goes, at least I haven't caught onto any consistent signal yet, but always barks after she eliminates and start kicking the puddle of urine outside the crate as if to alert me to clean up.
When I first got her, I take her out about after every hour or so in the crate, and most of time we just both stood outside forever without her ever going, then she promptly pees inside the house/crate somewhere. Now she pees almost every time I take her out. I tried to extend the time she spends in crate gradually, two hours seem to be a sweet spot right now, but sometimes she can't or doesn't even want to hold that long. And like I said, if I let her loose in the house, there is probably a 50/50 chance she will pee on the carpet only about 15 minutes after peeing outside!

By the way, when she is locked in the crate, should I be around her or leave her along from time to time?

Thanks.

PeppersPop · 09-20-2008, 06:42 PM

Do you take her out to the bathroom on a specific schedule (specific times like 6am, noon, 6pm) or do you do intervals (every couple of hours starting whenever you/she gets up)? Or both/neither?

When she goes in the crate, does she have to lay/sit in the puddle? If so, does it seem to bother her? How long (on average) is she in the crate after she pees?

As far as the crate goes, I think its good to teach dogs to be in the crate when their owner is around and when s/he's gone. Pepper is always crated when he's home alone... it's also very nice to be able to stick him in there when we are cleaning or trying to do something and don't want him underfoot.

As far as water goes, Pepper doesn't get when he's in the crate either. He's never in it for more than 2 or 3 hours at a time and he refuses to eat/drink when we are gone anyway... so I don't give it to him because as you said, it inevitably gets spilled. There are some water spill-proof water dispensers made for crates, but if your dog has adequate water out of the crate, isn't confined for long periods, and isn't outside or somewhere hot, then in my opinion, its fine to not give water.

It took a good six months before I was able to distinguish the "I need to go to the bathroom" bark from the "I hear someone in the hall" bark and the "I'm bored, pay attention to me" bark. You'll figure it out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckles

I feed her twice a day, 6AM and 6PM, a little more than a cup of food each time in accordance to the instruction of the food manufacturer. I initially put a water bowl inside the crate, but all she did was play with water while inside and splash it everywhere, so now I leave the water outside and supervise her drinking when she comes out (yes, it is necessary). She doesn't give me a clear signal before she goes, at least I haven't caught onto any consistent signal yet, but always barks after she eliminates and start kicking the puddle of urine outside the crate as if to alert me to clean up.
When I first got her, I take her out about after every hour or so in the crate, and most of time we just both stood outside forever without her ever going, then she promptly pees inside the house/crate somewhere. Now she pees almost every time I take her out. I tried to extend the time she spends in crate gradually, two hours seem to be a sweet spot right now, but sometimes she can't or doesn't even want to hold that long. And like I said, if I let her loose in the house, there is probably a 50/50 chance she will pee on the carpet only about 15 minutes after peeing outside!

By the way, when she is locked in the crate, should I be around her or leave her along from time to time?

Thanks.

Chuckles · 09-20-2008, 07:37 PM

Thanks, PeppersPop.

I work from home so I basically, from the time I get up, count two hours from last time she pees before I take her out again, but sometimes I take her out and she doesn't go, I just change to 1 hour interval until she pees and back to two hours again. And if she has a big drink right after our long walks, I also take her out an hour after she pees.

I think she pees in the front corner of the crate and then starts trying to kick the urine out of the crate with her paws. So, she doesn't actually sit or lay in the puddle, but inevitably gets urine all over herself (usually before I get a chance to intervene). And she barks when she does that, so I doubt she ever had to deal with the urine for more than 10 minutes at the most.

I have one of those clamps things that holds the water bowl, but she still kicks the water all of the place even when she can't flip the bowl, so I just gave up on that.

That last part of your comment is encouraging, hopefully I can figure that out in the future. I am very patient with her and will remain patient until she is fully trained, but it just bothers me a little she has so little bladder control at her age. I am so jealous of my friend's 2-year-old poodle that can hold it 12 hours. Hopefully it will get better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeppersPop

Do you take her out to the bathroom on a specific schedule (specific times like 6am, noon, 6pm) or do you do intervals (every couple of hours starting whenever you/she gets up)? Or both/neither?

When she goes in the crate, does she have to lay/sit in the puddle? If so, does it seem to bother her? How long (on average) is she in the crate after she pees?

As far as the crate goes, I think its good to teach dogs to be in the crate when their owner is around and when s/he's gone. Pepper is always crated when he's home alone... it's also very nice to be able to stick him in there when we are cleaning or trying to do something and don't want him underfoot.

As far as water goes, Pepper doesn't get when he's in the crate either. He's never in it for more than 2 or 3 hours at a time and he refuses to eat/drink when we are gone anyway... so I don't give it to him because as you said, it inevitably gets spilled. There are some water spill-proof water dispensers made for crates, but if your dog has adequate water out of the crate, isn't confined for long periods, and isn't outside or somewhere hot, then in my opinion, its fine to not give water.

It took a good six months before I was able to distinguish the "I need to go to the bathroom" bark from the "I hear someone in the hall" bark and the "I'm bored, pay attention to me" bark. You'll figure it out.

tarah3286 · 09-20-2008, 11:34 PM

Hang in there!

I have an 8 month old cocker spaniel pup. We got him at 8 weeks and I knew before I got him that I would crate train. Originally, we bought a plastic crate (like the more enclosed kind) because one of my dogs growing up had one like that. Oreo HATED it. It doesn't seem you're having a problem with the crate so much as the potty training, however, but I do recommend the open-wire crate; it worked for me at least.

I'm not sure if this is a practical idea or not, but the trainer we took Oreo to at Petsmart suggested putting a bell on a ribbon by the door that you're taking the dog out of to go potty. Everytime you take the dog out, say "potty!" and ring the bell with their foot or something so they know that's the signal. It worked for us for awhile, but eventually Oreo just rang it when he wanted to play or something, but by this point, we know his little whine to go outside.

My best recommendation is to be consistent and try as much as you can to stick to a schedule. I take out Oreo as soon as I wake up in the morning (or when he wakes me up around the same time), let him potty, then bring him in to eat. Right now, I have Oreo going potty almost immediately after he eats. We originally started taking him out at 1.5-2 hour intervals. Because you aren't sure of where your dog is at his ability to hold it, I guess I'd suggest starting as though he's a young puppy and progress from there.

I would suggest not putting water in the cage if you can help it. So long as it's in a climate-controlled area and you are able to water him enough, putting water in there will only make the peeing-in-the-cage problem worse. Also, don't put anything in the cage with him (like a blanket or bed) until you know he's potty trained and won't mess on things. Maybe a nylabone or something but nothing fabric.

Consistency, schedule, and key words. "Go potty" then reward. "Go poop!" then reward.

GOOD LUCK!!!

skelaki · 09-21-2008, 08:36 AM

Also, it's possible the crate is too large. She should JUST be able to stand, liedown and turn around. If it's any larger then block off a portion in the rear of the crate. Also be sure and clean any accidents up with an enzyme cleaner.

Chuckles · 09-21-2008, 09:37 AM

Thanks for all of your comments and advice and will try to follow up.

I am also actually starting to figure something out. In between her walks outside, I need to stay away from her. It seems that if I talk to or play with her while she is in the crate, she gets excited and possibly thinks she is about to get out and can go pee, when I end up not letting her out, she just goes inside shortly after (disappointment, desperation??). That is what happened last two times she peed inside the crate. I just left her alone overnight for 5.5 hours and this morning for 2.5 hours, she did just fine.

Keeping my fingers crossed.

PeppersPop · 09-21-2008, 03:14 PM

I think the "problem" is that you are going in and cleaning up right after she goes...

A small crate is used to make sure that the dog can't pee in one side of the crate and hang out in the other... having to sit/lay in a puddle of urine in unpleasant, so the dog learns to hold it and go outside.

You've got the right size crate, but you aren't letting her experience the consequence of her behavior... AND to make it worse, when you go in and clean up, you are rewarding her for peeing, by taking her out of the crate and paying attention to her..

So..... you see, she's not no reason to go outdoors.

She's in the crate, she sees you, she wants out, so she pees... you come and let her out. She's a smart pup!

My suggestion... put her on a schedule. Take her out at specific times or at specific intervals. If she pees in the crate, WAIT until the next time she is scheduled to go out, take her out, then clean up the crate.

It will take a couple days, but you'll be amazed at her new bladder control.

Good luck and do let us know how it goes!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckles

Thanks, PeppersPop.

I work from home so I basically, from the time I get up, count two hours from last time she pees before I take her out again, but sometimes I take her out and she doesn't go, I just change to 1 hour interval until she pees and back to two hours again. And if she has a big drink right after our long walks, I also take her out an hour after she pees.

I think she pees in the front corner of the crate and then starts trying to kick the urine out of the crate with her paws. So, she doesn't actually sit or lay in the puddle, but inevitably gets urine all over herself (usually before I get a chance to intervene). And she barks when she does that, so I doubt she ever had to deal with the urine for more than 10 minutes at the most.

I have one of those clamps things that holds the water bowl, but she still kicks the water all of the place even when she can't flip the bowl, so I just gave up on that.

That last part of your comment is encouraging, hopefully I can figure that out in the future. I am very patient with her and will remain patient until she is fully trained, but it just bothers me a little she has so little bladder control at her age. I am so jealous of my friend's 2-year-old poodle that can hold it 12 hours. Hopefully it will get better.

Chuckles · 09-23-2008, 08:04 PM

PeppersPop, I don't know if I agree with your method, but I inadvertently did just that this morning when she peed in her crate probably around 6:30AM (I was ignoring her barking thinking she just needed attention), and didn't realize she went in the crate until her next scheduled walk at 8:30AM. The crate was already dry and both she and the crate smelled like urine big time. Let's see how that goes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeppersPop

I think the "problem" is that you are going in and cleaning up right after she goes...

A small crate is used to make sure that the dog can't pee in one side of the crate and hang out in the other... having to sit/lay in a puddle of urine in unpleasant, so the dog learns to hold it and go outside.

You've got the right size crate, but you aren't letting her experience the consequence of her behavior... AND to make it worse, when you go in and clean up, you are rewarding her for peeing, by taking her out of the crate and paying attention to her..

So..... you see, she's not no reason to go outdoors.

She's in the crate, she sees you, she wants out, so she pees... you come and let her out. She's a smart pup!

My suggestion... put her on a schedule. Take her out at specific times or at specific intervals. If she pees in the crate, WAIT until the next time she is scheduled to go out, take her out, then clean up the crate.

It will take a couple days, but you'll be amazed at her new bladder control.

Good luck and do let us know how it goes!

MaddiesMom · 09-24-2008, 11:16 AM

Potty training is hard! When we got Maddie I was outside all the time with her it seemed. You just need to get into a groove.

I would take her out when we got up in the morning and she's do her business. I would take her out one more time before I put her in her crate and went to work. I'd come home at lunch and let her out to potty right away. I'd take her out one more time before I went back to work. Come home at night and take her out right away. A few more trips before bed and usually one time during the night. I know this probably sounds excessive, but I wanted her to know we go outside to potty.

She never gave a signal for potty. I'd just take her out every couple of hours. We didn't come until she did her business. You just need patience. I did this in the winter! What a pain!

Now the potty breaks are not as frequent - she's over a year old. We go once in the morning, lunch, after work and one or two times before bed. And all of the sudden she's started scratching the back door to let us know she needs to go out - yippee!

It sounds like the crate size is fine. Maddie only had one accident in the crate. I didn't know that you needed to size down, so they wouldn't potty in the crate. I fixed that and never had a problem again.

Patience, persistance and frequency is the key. If you are still not getting results, maybe a trip to the vet is in order. Maybe your dog has a bladder infection and can't help it. Good Luck!

PeppersPop · 09-24-2008, 10:04 PM

I didn't come up with this method... when people tell you to buy a crate that "fits" your dog, its so that she can't pee on one side of the crate and lay on the other.

I am, by no means, suggesting that you should intentionally neglect your dog or force her to spend long periods of time in a soiled cage... but if you give her attention and take her out of the crate every time she pees, she's going to pee to get your attention... she's going to pee to get out of the crate.

My suggestion is to start with very short intervals--you said she's been able to hold it 6-7 hours overnight--so start by taking her out every 2 hours. If she pees in the crate before its time to go out, wait until the scheduled time before you let her out and clean things up.

If you are uncomfortable doing this, then you might want to think about getting a 2nd crate. When she pees, don't say anything to her, don't pet her, just take her out of the soiled crate, put her into the clean one, and leave... and then take her outside at the scheduled time.

Have you ever seen the "I'm a big kid now" commercials for Pull-Ups training pants? They are made to be less absorbent than diapers so that they feel wet after an accident. Same principle... wet pants are uncomfortable so the kid uses the potty.

Remember... this is just for training. This isn't something that you're going to be doing for any long period of time. It's unpleasant but not harmful.

A trip back to the vet, just to make sure, wouldn't be a bad idea either...

Was today any better?

Regards,
Sid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckles

PeppersPop, I don't know if I agree with your method, but I inadvertently did just that this morning when she peed in her crate probably around 6:30AM (I was ignoring her barking thinking she just needed attention), and didn't realize she went in the crate until her next scheduled walk at 8:30AM. The crate was already dry and both she and the crate smelled like urine big time. Let's see how that goes.

Chuckles · 09-26-2008, 07:11 AM

I think she woke up a little earlier than usual today, by the time I was awaken by her whining and got to the crate, she had already went.

Every time I think to myself, "She hasn't had an accident for a while now", I turn around and there she went inside the crate or on the carpet. It just seems like she has no problem going inside the crate or even lying down in her own urine. I am starting to think this whole positive re-enforcement thing doesn't really work for her, and maybe neither does crate training.

PeppersPop · 09-26-2008, 09:25 PM

It's frustrating, for sure. But I think that if you put her on a schedule and stick to it, you'll see some changes. It's not going to happen overnight, but it will happen.

To me, it sounds like positive reinforcement is working wonderfully (unfortunately)...

Behavior: peeing in the crate
Positive reinforcement: attention & freedom

Here's how it works:
Dog pees in the crate.
Owner lets dog out to clean up (giving freedom/attention).
Dog discovers that peeing = freedom and attention.
Dog repeats the behavior.

Something to be aware of... you may see an increase in crate peeing as you are trying to get her to stop it. This is actually a good thing (it's called an extinction burst) and is a sign that you are making progress.

If you stop responding to crate peeing, your dog is going to try harder to get freedom and attention (which is when you will see the increase). If you continue to ignore/not respond, she will figure out that peeing in the crate no longer means attention and freedom and she will stop. It's really, really important that you continue to ignore/not respond when the behavior increases.

An example... a person gets into an elevator and hits a button. Usually, the elevator responds and takes them up to the designated floor. Today, the button is broken and when the person pushes it, nothing happens. Rather than hitting a different button and walking up/down a floor, the person most likely hits the same button again... and again and again and again. Eventually, they realize that hitting the button does nothing so they hit a new button.

Behavior: Hitting a specific button
Reinforcement: Elevator ride to desired floor
Extinction burst: hitting the same button repeatedly

When the reinforcement stops (elevator doesn't go), the person increases their current behavior (hits the button repeatedly). If the behavior still isn't reinforced, the old behavior stops and a new behavior takes place (hits a new button).

From what you've said, it doesn't sound like you are doing "crate training" the way it is typically done. The size of the crate makes it so that the dog has to deal with the unpleasantness of being in close proximity to its pee/poop... if you take the dog out of the crate right after it goes to the bathroom, then you are defeating the purpose of the crate.

If you stop the reinforcement (attention/freedom) and your dog continues to go in the crate, another trip to the vet might be a good idea to make sure she doesn't have an infection or some kind of bladder/urinary tract abnormality.

If you start a new thread on this topic, you might get more responses... I'm sure this must be driving you crazy!!

Best wishes,
Sid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckles

I think she woke up a little earlier than usual today, by the time I was awaken by her whining and got to the crate, she had already went.

Every time I think to myself, "She hasn't had an accident for a while now", I turn around and there she went inside the crate or on the carpet. It just seems like she has no problem going inside the crate or even lying down in her own urine. I am starting to think this whole positive re-enforcement thing doesn't really work for her, and maybe neither does crate training.