Help... Or my dog has to go!!! So frustrated!!!

kredd

Hi guys I am in need of help with my Mini Schnauzer...
I have a mini schnauzer that I purchased about 5 months ago. I feel like giving up on him.... But I want to try one more time.

Before purchasing a dog, I did my research on what type of dog would fit into my family of 4 (husband, wife, 2 kids). The miniature schnauzer fit perfectly (or what I read about him). So I found Lex Luthor on the internet. When I purchased him, I went to pick him up but the place I picked him up from turned out to be a puppy mill. ( I am thinking that this has something to do with the way he is). I felt like I rescued him from his terrible living conditions in a dark, smelly, yucky trailer with several other dogs.

Since we have gotten him He has been in a shell and is still scared to come out. He is a very scared non confident dog. The vet tells me that we need to work on buiding his confidence. He shakes and pees when strangers or men approach him every time. He is even terrified of cars. He even broke his leg trying to run when a car was passing because he was pooping and got scared. That cost me $400 to fix I don't understand how It broke but he jumped and landed funny. And it seems impossible to potty train him. I was extremely consistent with taking him outside and crate training ( was completely crate trained). When ever I would take him out of his crate, I would take him outside and let him poop and handle his buisiness. Then we would go inside and I would let him play with my two year old. He would always go in my daughters room and go to the bathroom ( pee and poop) again. It seems as though he would intentionally hold some in and go when he got in the house almost immediatley after coming inside everytime ( we would stay outside between 15-30 minutes).

This has happened so many times that I have given up on potty training all together and just put him in the garage (i feel terrible). It has been about a whole month since he has been in there. But we have moved into a brand new house and just cannot deal with the pooping on my new carpet. I know that I have regressed in all of the work that I have put in to training him but I need serious help with training him or else. Maybe I was not doing the right thing. I used to think that maybe he was stupid or inbred or something.

Everything i read online says that these dogs are extremely intellegent and easy to train. But, every one I meet that actually has one tells me how weird and hard to train these dogs are. I met my neighbor across the street last week and she said that she used to have a white one that she could not train and had to get rid of him ( she even went as far as to tell me that she was a dog trainer). I met another lady in line at Wal mart and she said that she had one and it always poops under her bed and she put it out on the porch. This has made me very discouraged about Lex Luthor.

I know this is really long I'm sorry . This is how much I need help. Some one please help. I feel like selling him and getting a different dog. I am not having fun with my dog. This sucks.

cshellenberger

Ok, You've brought this poor dog out of one hell and you're thinking of sending him to another one? Yes, your dog is fearful, you have to work on building his trust and being his leader.

DON'T baby, but don't put him into situations he's scared of either. You are going to have to desensitize him to his fears. Forcing him onto a scary situation is flooding and it will make matters worse, possibly even causeing him to bite in self defense.

Unfortunatly temperment problems are common in dogs from puppy mills as they have NO socialization. Get "Cautious Canine" to work with him until you can a professional trainer or behaviorist to help you. Be sure whoever you bring in ONLY uses positive reenforcement, any type of punishment will only make things worse. Here are some links to help you.
http://www.ccpdt.org/
http://www.iaabc.org/

Honestly, you should have just walked away from the puppy mill, but you have him now and you need to stand behind him and take resposibility for him NOT dispose of him like garbage because he has a problem.

Snowshoe

I think that CurbsideProphet would be a great one to ask. He has a mini schnauzer, and may have better advise on them.

Here is some information on potty training older dogs: Potty Training Older Puppies and Adult Dogs
You can use essentially the same routine as for puppies, but you will need to be much more vigilant and more patient, for a longer time period. Once an animal (or a person!) learns a habit, it can take a long time for it to go away. In scientific terms, the behavior isn't easily extinguished because the an intermittent reinforcement cycle is even more rewarding than an every-time one. In other words, if the dog now and then experiences a reward for eliminating in the house -- and the reward can simply be the natural sense of relief -- then his tendency will be to keep up the habit. (This doesn't only apply to potty training dogs -- it's a general principle.)

How do you get around this? By creating a situation where the dog never eliminates in the house. This can be easier said than done, but keeping the dog in a crate, fenced yard, or outside pen when you are gone can be essential.

One part is easier with older dogs: that long list of times to take the puppy out can be reduced quite a lot, since the dog can physically wait much longer between pit stops. If you haven't already figured out when your dog is most likely to need to go out, a little thought and observation should give you that information. Middle-of-the-night trips are less likely with older dogs.

Some other options you can consider would be to consult a dog behaviorist. Your dog has massive confidence issues, and if you get angry at your dog, this will only reinforce his/her fear. You must be calm, and non-confrontational with your dog. If you yell, your dog will only fear you, and will not learn anything from you.

Use a phermone stripping cleaner for when your dog does have accidents in the house. Dogs mark their territory with scent, so if you don't want your dog eliminating in the same place again and again, you must remove the scent marker.

Crate your dog. I do not know if you crate train, but this was how we were able to house train our puppy. You can use the google search feature, and just type in "crate training." It will pop up tons of options.

Plus, crate are really cheap.

On another note, I think its sad when people get rid of their dogs. It's not his fault that you didn't reasearch his breeder before you picked him out, and that now you regret getting him from a puppy mill.

kredd

Thanks carla... I just don't know what to do. Is "Cautious Canine" a book? if so who is the author? I will check out the links that you have suggested. This is so frustrating to me because I really wanted an "inside" dog.

He was good in the crate but I feel like He is so lonely. especially out in the garage.

kredd

Snowshoe,
You are right I should have researched his breeder. This was my first dog and I was so anxious to just have a dog that I didn't even think about researching. But thank you for your tips. I have crate trained and was very successful at that. But it just seemed like all he did was stay in his crate because of when I let him out ( after taking him outside) he would do his buisness inside even after he went already outside. After He would poop in the house, I would make him smell it and then take him directly outside. Afterwards, I would put him back in the crate. I know that he didn't say to himself " I will hold it so I can make her mad". But it feels like it. So instead of always keeping him in the small crate. I just put him in the Garage.

Before I even posted anything, I sent CurbsideProphet a PM. I hope he/she responds.

I must even admit that I put him up on craigs list. Many people wanted him. But I could not bring my self to sell him. I feel obligated to help him. But I don't know how.

This has been really frustrating for me and I just don't know what else to do. I am willing to give this one more shot. But I definately need help .

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cshellenberger

Yes, I'm sorry I thought I put the authors name in the post It's by Dr. Patricia McConnell and available on www.dogwise.com

By all means he should be an inside dog. Remember that he's had a horrific start in life and at his age is about the same as 2yr old child. Bring him back in, use the crate. He comes out of the crate, goes straight putside to do his business and reward heavily the minute his bottom comes up from the ground (lots of small yummy treats such as cut up hot dogs or cheese) for going outside. When he comes in, you have to watch him like a hawk! The minute he starts sniffing, take him back out and repeat. You will fade off he treats once he catches on, but that may take a while. Any time you can't watch him, he's in the crate (which should be in the family area) with a stuffed kong to chew on to relieve his anxiety.

Also, have him checked to be sure there is no UTI.

Doberdude

I had similar problems when I first brought my pup home. My pup acted all brave and like he got used to the house and then when I tried to take him outside he stood still wouldn't even take a step outside then did a puddle on my carpet. First off I say make outside like a fun place give him toys, play games etc so he starts to like going outside. Once my pup got used to going outside he had the exact same problem he would poo or pee outside then do another one once he gets in. When you take your dog out I suggest you try to make it run around a lot. I read an article about potty training that says running will make affect the pups digestive time and he'll need to go after running. (it will only work if he is sniffing) I take my dog out and let him pee then I play a game with him that involves running and after the game he sniffs arounds then poops. Now my pup thinks going outside to poop is fun! This worked for me so you can try it to see if it helps

kredd

Thanks I'll try it. I am going to bring him back in tomorrow. And start all over. Wish me luck.....

mom to lil buddy

I would agree with the exercise to facilitate elimination. My new Shih Tzu is esentially a rescue and while I can't walk well, I can run her around in circles on her lead and it helps. I also learned that my min schnauzer wasn't done until she'd eliminated twice. Don't give up! Max's Mom

opokki

Is he anxious even when you take him oustide to potty?

You might also be interested in picking up "Way to Go! How to housetrain a dog of any age" by Patricia McConnell. This can also be found on dogwise or amazon.

Curbside Prophet

How old was the dog when you purchased him? Elsa was also a puppy-mill product that I fortunately was able to rescue at 12 weeks. Being a puppy was obviously an advantage in her training, but she still had a few anxiety issues and fear issues that we had to work on, and still do. A couple of things you need to consider is your dog savvy. It sounds as though you're frustrated and possibly do not have the energy to work on his problems any further? Are you getting any help from your spouse? Let me put it this way, if you really believe you can't handle this dog, please hire a behaviorist, and Carla left a couple of valuable links to find one. If a behaviorist isn't an option, please contact your nearest mini schnauzer rescue and consult with them. They may be able to get in contact with someone in your area who can help, or possibly make arrangements to rehome your dog. Craig's list is not where you wan't to start, and I'm glad you reconsidered. It's hard for us to guess what triggers your dog's fears, and a behaviorists eyes are valuable in developing a treatment plan. Besides living in the garage, what is your dog's daily life like? This dog really does need to be an inside dog with a lot of supervision. Can he get a lot of supervision throughout the day? When he pooped in your daughters room, was he being supervised? These dogs need a lot of exercise, they are very much high energy. Exercise is key. What kind of exercise does he get? Is he neutered? The real question is this...what's more valuable, your carpet, or your dog's happiness. If you say your carpet, I'd say rehome the dog and seriously reconsider getting another. If the dog's happiness is more valuable, please hire a behaviorist. We can give you basic tips to help you be more dog savvy, but when it comes to fear issues and frustration, I always feel as though only a behaviorist, who has the advantage of observation, is what's best.

I read in your other post that the dog is six months old, and above you stated you've had him for 5 months? How young was the pup again when you bought him? 4 weeks? 6 weeks? Way too young for the pup to be taken away from it's mother. I don't care what kind of dog it is, doing this can cause serious psychological problems, that will require a lot of work on your part to remedy. I do hope you're up for the challenge, but if you're determined and seek help, you can do it. Please call a behaviorist.

kredd

Yes. He gets scared when cars come by. Now he barks if he sees other people. But if they come to close, he has his tail (or nub) btw his legs and pees. He also starts howling sometimes. He is terrified.

kredd

Well lets start with It has almost been 5 months and he is about 7 months old . I got him when he was around 7 weeks. According to the "breeder" - puppy mill I got him from. I really didn't do my homework like I should have when I decieded to purchase Lex. I was so happy that my hubby finally agreed to let us girls ( me and my two girls) have a dog that I hurried before he changed his mind. And I drove two hours to what was a puppy mill and i got lost and i wasn't leaving without the cutie that caught my eye. I felt like I rescued him. I am a stay at home mom and I run my own business - from home. So I am able to watch him. But when he went in my my daughters room I was watching him then he followed her in there for like 2 minutes. Then I smelt the aroma. But of course she is 2 yrs and cant really watch a dog. But this has been almost immediately after I took him out side and he pooped. And the thing that baffeled me the most was that it is alot more poop than he did out side.

And now he is in the garage ( i feel terrible) he does not get the exercise he needs, He gets to run around freely but I know that is not enough. This is why I want to bring him back in . I really do want to give him another chance. Because he needs help. And i don't just want to toss him to the wind. We just moved to this new house about a month ago, and he has not
had the opportunity to do anything in here.

Honestly, I don't feel as though I know who my dog is because he is so scared. I have never come across a more scarry dog in my life. He is not neutered yet. I have been told to wait until he is one year old. My dogs happiness is important to me.

I have a few questions for you. Was your dog easy to house break? Does your dog roam your home freely if so what is that like? Do you keep Elsa in a crate? and How did you train her? What are some key pointers to how you did it? People I have spoken with say that their mini schnauzer goes under their bed when they are not looking. I will try contacting a behaviorist tomorrow and see what they can do for me.

Thanks for your reply ....

Silverpawz

It sounds like your dog is very confused and unsure of what you expect. If he came from a puppy mill that's probably the reason you're having such a hard time housebrekaing him. In mills most dogs are allowed to use the bathroom wherever, or even inside their crates and just sit in it.

This makes it hard to train them since they have no concept of staying clean. It's just normal to them to use the bathroom whever they see fit.

I would suggest starting from scratch like you have a brand new puppy. One with no training, no idea how to be husebroken, and no clue what you want.
Set him up on a scedule if you can and take him out at regular times. I'd probably go with every two-three hours during the day if that's possible for you.

When he's inside, keep him on a leash and loop the end around your wrist. Now he's attached to you. Whever you go, he goes. He won't be able to sneak off and use the bathroom in a bedroom. This will prevent him from making mistakes and give you more opprotunity to praise him for going outside.

If you can't be with him then he needs to go in his crate.

If you see a pattern of him having an accident an hour or so after coming in, then make sure you take him back out around that time to prevent it.

Housebreaking is all about prevention. You've got your work cut out for with with a mill puppy, but it can be done with the right training and some paitience.

Lokum

as you said your dog has confidence problem but please don't give up anyway how can you sell that dog nobody wants to buy I guess but you should give a chance too.I joined a conference in turkey about positive dog training in the video show I saw that it so simple to exercise you can use pasteboard box for example jump in that's example of courge and you must use the way of giving award that can be the thing it loves most may be a dog biscuit or playing with its best toy but you must try before giving him up...

DogAdvocat

The first think I think you need to change is your attitude towards this dog. The idea of "giving him one more chance" is going to promote failure. You are smarter than the dog, and you CAN do this. But it's going to take time and more than anything, it's going to take training yourself.

If you are blaming the dog for not being housebroken yet, then you are placing the blame on the wrong party. The one at fault is the one that should be in control but is not. And again, you have to be smarter than the dog. When you let the dog free, even for 2 minutes, in your daughter's room, and then make a comment about your daughter being 2 years old and not really being able to watch the dog - then you are looking to place the blame on anyone/anything but yourself. YOU weren't vigilant, YOU didn't keep the dog where you could see him, YOU let him out of sight and on his own. Now it's perfectly understandable that you thought he had eliminated outside, and so there was nothing else he could do, but now you know that's not the case - so you need to tighten up your own methods of housebreaking. You certainly wouldn't consider giving up your daughter if she wasn't following the rules - you'd redirect your own efforts to make sure that you made it more likely for her to succeed.

By the way, is your daughter potty trained? If not, then the dog may be picking up an odor on your flooring from the occasional leaky diaper, which might be encouraging him to go inside. I realize you have new carpets now, but if you had used an odor eliminator on the old carpet, it might have helped. And if your daughter still isn't potty trained, then the new carpet is at risk as well.

Puppy mill dogs are a whole different type of dog. It would be like fostering or adopting a young child from a neglectful or abusive home. You can expect them to have issues, and whether your choice was advisable or not, he now depends on you. I do hope that if you do give up, you will contact a schnauzer rescue, but it's going to be very difficult to find a home for him with people that want to take on his issues. I agree with the post above that Craig's list is not a good place to start, but whoever you might decide to give him to, you owe him to screen the new home carefully. What experience have they had with puppymill dogs? What are they willing to do to solve the problems (a behaviorist?)?

I too encourage you to seek the help of a behaviorist, mostly for his fear issues. The goal will be only partially to fix his issues, the goal will also be to train you how to cope with those issues and how not to send him the wrong signals (like babying him when he's afraid).

And finally, there is no good reason to wait to neuter him. He's old enough, and you don't need more testosterone driven problems.

Remember, if your dog potty's in the house, take a newspaper, roll it up tightly, and smack yourself across the nose, because you weren't vigilant, and you didn't get him out in time.

Lokum

punishmet or being in a bad attitude or being more stubbern never works that kind of characters ...I think so...

Curbside Prophet

Easy to house break? I thought she did fine. She was probably fully house broken at about 6 months of age, but I really didn't give her any freedoms until she was 8 months of age. I had the mindset that it would take up to a year to house break her, and her 8 month freedoms was a trial that stuck. Why did I expect it to take so long? Primarily because of the methods I thought were best for my situation. I did use the crate whenever I could...mostly when I was home, or knew she wouldn't be locked up for more than a couple of hours. When I had to leave her for longer periods of time (over 4 hours), I used the paper training method. I luckily had a completely empty bedroom that was puppyproof. You may not have a room like I did, but you may have a kitchen that you could gate off or a large bathroom, or better yet an exercise pen. I'm not opposed to using the crate, but I am opposed to overusing it. When in the bedroom, I left her plenty of chew toys, and interactive toys like Kongs and Buster Cubes to keep her busy. I'd leave the radio on, and came home mid day to take her out for a potty break. The key to any house training method is rewarding the dog for doing it's business in the place you want them to go. Do you praise your dog when he eliminates outside? For a dog with low confidence, your neighbors should know by your excitement that your dog has eliminated outside. But do you know if your dog can tell when your happy?

Elsa does, now, and for about the past year have free roam of the house. It's great as far as I'm concerned, however, I do need to pay attention to what I leave laying around. She loves to destroy cardboard boxes and magazines if they are left on the floor...why she doesn't touch them when they are on the couch, I don't know...but I would not argue that when they are on the floor it's related to her paper training days because she played with the newspapers then too. Nevertheless, I'm over conscious about keeping my home puppyproof.

The only time that I now use the crate is when a stranger enters my home. Its to make my life easier as I have a hard time focusing on more than one thing. So I'll keep her in the crate while I attend to the stranger. Otherwise, Elsa is capable of a long down-stay when known guests are around, and when needed. Elsa does choose to use the crate on her own, and this is how I prefer the crate to be used in my home. If I'm watching football and it's too loud, she'll crawl into her crate for a nap.

I started Elsa's training with puppy school at about 16 weeks. Depending on when you can gain a handle on your dog's fear issues, puppy school or obedience school should be something for you and your family (as everyone in your family should be involved) to consider. I chose group training so my dog could socialize with many different types of dogs. She very much is a sponge to active learning. We've toyed with agility on our own, and I'm fully confident if and when we dedicate ourselves to training advanced again (I'm currently busy remodeling my home), she will succeed in agility as I've seen many minis succeed. Participating in a sport like this may not be in your future, but keeping any dog happy and healthy requires giving them a job to do. This leads into your next question.

The basis of Elsa's training is no different than training any dog. You need to find a balance between physical stimulation (exercise), mental stimulation (activities that make the dog think), and social stimulation (meeting new people, places, and dogs). I spend about 1/2 my time with Elsa exercising, walking on heel, running, or running through agility drills. I'll spend 2/3rds of the remaining time on reinforcing commands we've learned or teaching new tasks...currently we're working on climbing a step ladder. Part of building confidence is setting up your dog for reward. Setting up small achievements and building up as you go. Elsa would normally avoid the step ladder, she has an aversion to some stationary objects, but over time with a lot of work she will now get both paws to the top step. She's starting to show signs that she wants to climb higher with her rear legs, but we're not there yet. Whether she succeeds or fails isn't what's important to me, but giving her a chance to earn reward with thought is. Finally, the balance of our time together is spent on frequenting new parks, visiting our friends, the dog park, or saying hello to new dogs on our walk.

Finally, NILIF is applicable to all dogs: Nothing in Life is Free
NILIF is where leadership is made.

Please let us know how your search for a behaviorist goes. Good luck!

kredd

All of you Guys are right!!! I am not going to give up. I CAN DO IT! I will stick with him and work it out. I have not yet contacted the behaviorist but I will today ( guess I better hurry up). Lex does need help and all of your tips are very helpful. When I was growing up, the only dogs we had were outside only dogs and dogs were treated much differently than you guys treat your dog (like they are a part of the family). So we never dealt with these problems. But I want to and will ( I changed my attitude) break the mold and work on him. I will keep my success with him posted. I am going to Petco today and purchase Lex somenew toys and some yummy treats. And we will begin again starting anew today....

Curbside Profit... You have been an inspiration for me (with Elsa) to help Lex and deal with it. He is who I have and picked , and I think I would be able to appreciate him more given all we have been thru and have ahead.

DogAdvocat... Thank you for not sugar coating it. It is me that has not be stern enough and yes I have myself to blame.

SilverPaws... Excellent suggestion regarding keeping him on a leash in the house and taking him with me... I never thought about that.

Thanks everyone for you helpful tips. I will keep you posted on my success story with lex. And I know I will be back to vent and ask for more tips from you experts.

opokki

In that case, this could also be a factor in your housebreaking troubles. If he gets startled, he may not be finishing outdoors. Maybe this is why he goes again so soon after coming back inside.

I think you'll do fine! Just be patient and consistant. Best of luck!

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