Can't seem to get it through his thick head how to walk on a leash!

Darkmoon · 05-22-2008, 02:20 PM

Gah... I am so FRUSTRATED at the moment. It seems like walking on leash is the only thing I can't seem to grasp. With Carter it took me nearly 6 months to finally get him to walk on a loose leash without pulling and that was with constant corrections until he finally got it (since treats and "good boys" never worked)

With Nubs, He just doesn't "get it". I stop dead in my tracks as soon as he starts to pull, he thinks thats mean he needs to run back to me and touch my hand. If I stop and start walking the other direction he just gets confused. If I use a correction on a "choke chain" he just pulls harder. Today I took a short 3 ft leash and did correction and reward every time he passed my legs (heel position) he just doesn't understand and I'm to the point of crying. How in the WORLD did you get your dog to walk with AT LEAST a loose leash? I would just be happy with him out in front of me not pulling, I would be even happier in a heel position. I just don't "get it"... I don't "allow" him to pull on leash, but it doesn't stop him from making sure that leash is taut with no slack at all but yet not pulling.

I'm just at the end of my rope with this. HELP!!!!

borzoimom · 05-22-2008, 02:39 PM

well I have been there.. I jsut kept it up by using abrupt 180 turns- ie you pull i go the other direction.. I swear I never thought a few of mine would get it, then the light comes on- DONT PULL and leave what I say.. I can walk all my dogs because at 100 pounds each anyone of them can take me off my feet. So you start with one and they all know- if one pulls mom is doing an about turn with a snap..

FriendsOfZoe · 05-22-2008, 02:43 PM

An easy-walk type harness can be very helpful in correcting the pull while you work on training. Since Nubs is already strong and pulling, I would try out the harness and continue the training (180 degree turns, treats, etc.) and hopefully the harness will save your arm until the training clicks.

Curbside Prophet · 05-22-2008, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkmoon

I just don't "get it"... I don't "allow" him to pull on leash, but it doesn't stop him from making sure that leash is taut with no slack at all but yet not pulling.

You wondered about attachment with this dog in another thread, correct? Consider this...for him to keep a taut leash tells him exactly where you are. It's intuitive for us to think he'd do that only where you were in view. But that doesn't accomplish his other goal - to get where he's going. So to him a taut leash is best. I personally would try abandonment training with him since he does want to be with you.

You'll need a partner to do this and practice time. The setup is pretty straight forward. You have your normal leash on him and another handler has a long line to prevent him from getting loose. From a sit start walking. As soon as he starts to pull or lead, throw your leash down and run in the opposite direction. This should cause him to chase you down, which you should reward. The other handler can be a second pair of eyes to instruct you when to throw the leash down, but they are mostly there to keep the dog on the long lead and prevent the dog from hitting the end of the long lead. Repeat this over and over. If the method is effective he should start to choose anticipating your departure instead of pulling.

I also think tug games, object orientation, and proofing impulse control will help with this too.

Darkmoon · 05-22-2008, 04:18 PM

Thanks CP, I'll try that. I just get the dogs that want to be "different" lol

Annamarie · 05-22-2008, 04:36 PM

with my dog, once I stopped fiddling with the leash he stopped pulling. trying to keep him in a heel position just made him pull more. he's only little but it was still annoying.

now I just leave it loose, he may go ahead now and then but he looks back at me to check where I am and once he's had a chance to burn off some steam he walks in the right position. the only time he pulls is when we're going to the field or the beach where I let him off, he gets excited and starts whining and pulling which we're working on.

have you tried jogging with your dog, or letting him run somewhere before trying to get him to heel? sometimes once that edge is off their brains are able to listen and learn better.

PeppersPop · 05-22-2008, 05:13 PM

It's a slow and frustrating process, for sure.

You've tried the choke collar and corrections discovered that corrections are not effective for Nibs, so I would suggest stopping the corrections and only using positive reinforcement. Positive reinforcement in this situation is walking/forward movement. Verbal praise and petting/scratching are good too. Pepper has no interest in food rewards when we are outside.

I think that walking on a loose leash is a step towards learning to heel. If I understand your post, it sounds to me like you are on the right track. Although coming back and touching your hand is not what you are looking for, it is a step in the right direction.

When he pulls and you stop, wait until the leash is loose, say "good boy" and start walking again. If Nibs is coming back next to you when you stop, he's got the right idea. It will take some time, but he will put together pulling = stop and loose leash = go.

For the purpose of training, I consider a taut leash to be pulling. I use the leash like a brake... if it's taut, we don't move. If Pepper starts to get ahead, I say "slow down" or "walk nice" and if/when he gets to the end of the leash, we stop until he comes back to me and the tension on the leash is gone.

It took three or four very slow, frustrating walks before he started to get it. Our first couple of loose leash walks took an hour to go two houses down the street, but after some practice he is much better at walking now. He went from pulling 100% of the time to pulling 5% of the time (mostly in response to seeing birds, squirrels, or other dogs). I think it has taken him longer to learn loose leash than most dogs tho, because my partner insists on using a flexi-leash (which requires the dog to pull in order to go anywhere).

Hang in there... I started working with Pepper on loose leash after taking him for a nice long walk. The first couple of walks we went on were very early in the morning and very late at night so that there weren't as many distractions. You really have to stand your ground and be even more stubborn than the dog... if you give in to his pulling, he's going to think that if he pulls long enough / hard enough, you're going to let him go.

Once you've got Nibs consistently walking on a loose leash, then you can up the ante and teach him to heel.

Happy Walking!
Sid

PS. Pepper never responded to the 180 degree turn thing, although its quite possible I was doing it wrong. He wants to go, go, go and was always happy to go in the opposite direction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkmoon

Gah... I am so FRUSTRATED at the moment. It seems like walking on leash is the only thing I can't seem to grasp. With Carter it took me nearly 6 months to finally get him to walk on a loose leash without pulling and that was with constant corrections until he finally got it (since treats and "good boys" never worked)

With Nubs, He just doesn't "get it". I stop dead in my tracks as soon as he starts to pull, he thinks thats mean he needs to run back to me and touch my hand. If I stop and start walking the other direction he just gets confused. If I use a correction on a "choke chain" he just pulls harder. Today I took a short 3 ft leash and did correction and reward every time he passed my legs (heel position) he just doesn't understand and I'm to the point of crying. How in the WORLD did you get your dog to walk with AT LEAST a loose leash? I would just be happy with him out in front of me not pulling, I would be even happier in a heel position. I just don't "get it"... I don't "allow" him to pull on leash, but it doesn't stop him from making sure that leash is taut with no slack at all but yet not pulling.

I'm just at the end of my rope with this. HELP!!!!

TooneyDogs · 05-23-2008, 02:11 AM

Here's another tactic you might want to try...find a vacant tennis court that is fenced and gated. Take the leash off and put it in your pocket. Try "Walk with me". (This is from Dawn Jecs...called Choose to Heel). Load up on treats and just walk. Everytime he's comes to heel/close to your side...treat/praise and then walk in a different direction. Keep at it...keep walking/treating/praising.
Sometimes, the leash just gets in the way/sending all the wrong signals of what you're trying to teach so try it without and see if he gets the idea.

Dogstar · 05-23-2008, 06:04 AM

I *love* choose to heel.

One thing I've been playing with with Lizzie (who pulls when she's excited and we've focused more on FINDING heel position (stationary and in motion- but not on motion on leash yet) than styaing in it- this is a luxury you don't have with a dog that isn't 10 pounds, though) is doing the regular old 'be a tree' thing like you were doing. Lizzie also bounces back to me, finds heel position, gives me a dirty look if I don't click instantly, and then heads out again to get back to whatever was so interesting at the end of the leash. So I've been clicking before she hits the end of the leash- she's headed out there, and about 1/4 of the time, I'm slower than I want (click is timed correctly for the loose leash, but her momentum carries her out to the end and it gets tight for a second before she comes back in to get her treat.) I'm not sure why I never tried this before. I've been playing with the timing on it for about three days now and it seems to be working fairly well. The next step will be to start clicking for a longer duration in that spot between me and the point where the leash goes tight but I want to see her being more deliberate at this stage before I raise the bar.

poodleholic · 05-23-2008, 06:22 AM

Quote:

I *love* choose to heel.

Me, too! It's how I *choose* to train from the get go!

Brandii · 05-23-2008, 08:55 AM

Have you tried a head halter? Dogs won't like it at first and once you take it off the dog is likely to go back to pulling, but if you use it all of the time it would eliminate pulling. Gentle Leader is a good brand. Have you ever watched It's Me Or The Dog? Victoria Stilwell is the trainer on that show and she is awesome!! When dogs pull, she makes them turn around and walk the opposite direction....keep repeating until the dog stops pulling. She says that it is negative for the dog to go in the opposite direction of where he/she wants to go, and it teaches the dog as long as they don't pull they will be rewarded by going the direction they want to go in, and if they do pull they have to go the way they don't want to go--if that makes sense.

LuckyLabMom · 05-23-2008, 04:25 PM

I feel ya, friend. Chester is a puller. A big, strong, thick-necked puller. I've been using a prong collar (which I can't stand!) and it's like we have to re-learn the lesson every time we leave for a walk. Actually, it's more like we have to learn the lesson every 3 blocks. And often I'll hit the point of frustration and just give up so I don't pass my bad vibes onto him. And the whole time he seems totally clueless, occasionally confused...poor dog.

This past week I have been using tips from the Loose-Leash training thread pinned in the training forum here. I had tried that method when I first got him but he is SO food-motivated and SO big that it totally failed. One day last week I got really frustrated on the walk and didn't go as far as usual. I came home, calmed down, and decided to walk him around the perimeter of the backyard very...slowly... keeping him next to me by bribing him with kibble - using a short leash on a flat collar. It actually worked for about 5 minutes. He was so confused about why we were walking around the yard like that, and so distracted from the kibble, I don't think he even realized it was a lesson. But it was a start.

I started carrying a pocket full of kibble on some of our walks and when he hits the end of the leash I do a 180 and go the opposite direction. When he catches up to me I pop a piece of kibble in his mouth (because now he looks at me as if to say WTF? when I change directions) It's getting to where he'll stay right there by my side for a block or two, as long as I keep popping out the kibble every 10 or 15 seconds, but I can't do that for a whole 40 minute walk. So I take what I can get, a block or 2 at a time.

I do worry that going back and forth between the positive kibble method and the prong collar method is making it harder for the lesson to sink in. But I finally feel like we're making progress.

I'm also meeting with a trainer next week for a one-on-one session so I'll get tips from her (leash walking is our only sugnificant problem) and when I do I'll pass it along. She is a positive-oriented trainer (I tried to sign up for her clicker training class but it was full - so I'm gonna meet with her a couple times and then sign up for a future class with her).

Dogstar · 05-23-2008, 05:45 PM

I will say, if the kibble's not working? Try a better treat. I only have one dog that will work for kibble (Lizzie) and she will only work for it in a low-distraction environment.

Kotone · 05-24-2008, 01:14 PM

I bought a Gentle Leader yesterday to try with Logan and it's AMAZING. He was walking without pulling right away. He didn't fight it that much, either. It's definitely worth a shot I'd say as opposed to him choking himself on the choke chain(lol). I was going to try a prong collar with Logan but I'm definitely preferring the Gentle Leader. It's sooo easy to use, you just pull it gently to the side if they start pulling and they slow right down. I can't say how much I like this thing, Lol.