New puppy biting question

McBeck · 04-16-2008, 06:35 PM

Hi! This is my first post on here. I hope I'm in the right place.

I have a new spitz-breed puppy named Maija. She is 10 weeks old and we've had her for just a week and a half. I did a lot of reading and research before adopting her to prepare myself and my 11-year-old for the months ahead.

My daughter loves structure and routine and she's been very good about working with the puppy. She takes her out every morning at 5:45, feeds her breakfast, takes her out again after school, etc. I have a great job that allows me to work from home, so I'm here for the mid-day breaks and meal. We are crate training; Maija seems to have adjusted pretty well to her crate. She whines a little during the day, but she settles down pretty quick.

My question concerns Maija's tendency to bite and mouth my daughter. I realize she's just a baby, but I am concerned b/c our correction technique seems to be falling on deaf ears. Whenever Maija gets her mouth on my daughter, my daughter yelps and turns her back on Maija. The problem is that Maija simply doesn't care. Even if they were in the middle of a great game of fetch, she just walks away and looks for something else to do. She does the same thing to me no matter what we were doing before the nip happened.

Maija doesn't mouth me too often, and usually it's just when we're playing. However, she nips at my daughter's hands and legs whenever she gets a chance. I've seen her deliberately walk across the room to bite my daughter's leg, so I don't think it's a result of over-stimulation. It's really beginning to upset my daughter and I'm not sure how we can end the constant nipping. I appreciate any suggestions!

Poly · 04-18-2008, 12:29 PM

Threr are actually two problems here. One is the unacceptable play-biting. The other is that Maija is not seeing your daughter as a leader.

Let's talk about play-biting first.

The turn away-look away method is the way to start.

If Maija is responding to that by simply stopping whatever she was doing with you and walking away, that's actually an acceptable response. But you have to reinforce it.

When she does that, you also walk away immediately in the opposite direction. If she tries to follow you at all, turn back toward her, give her a hard stare and take a few steps in her direction. If she starts playing with a toy, take the toy away from her. She has to understand that her play-time is over right now and that you are very serious about stopping it. Then give her a time-out by simply ignoring her for a while.

That is being fair because she also has a way to let the play-time continue next time - namely, to not bite you.

Some people give a 'no-reward mark' like saying "TOO BAD" or "IT'S OVER" or something like that. You can do that if you want, but your attitude and facial expression is really doing the communication. However, the 'no-reward mark' might help you make your body language and expression more emphatic - which would be a good thing.

When she is playing without biting, make sure that you praise her from time to time as you are playing with her. Don't go overboard - a simple "YES" will do. And don't feel bad about ending the play on your terms even when she is behaving well.

Now let's talk about your daughter being accepted as Maija's leader.

If Maija tries to get your daughter's attention by biting her, that is actually normal puppy behavior with littermates. But you really don't want Maija to see your daughter as another puppy - you want Maija to see her as a leader.

When Maija starts biting, tell your daughter to give the "OW" or "YIPE" and when she lets go, make eye contact and give Maija a firm, hard stare for a few seconds. Make it a mean look. Add a low growl if you want to really emphasize the lesson. But don't get physical and hit or slap your puppy - that won't help. What we are doing here is mimicking pack behavior from adults that pups recognize instinctively.

Attitude and facial expressions are very important. You are basically establishing who are the leaders in your "pack".

Also, you don't say anything about NILIF. I hope you and your daughter are doing it at every opportunity. Here is a link about NILIF (it is written for terriers but it also applies to your puppy):

NILIF

Good luck with your puppy.

Xeph · 04-18-2008, 02:36 PM

Quote:

If she starts playing with a toy, take the toy away from her. She has to understand that her play-time is over right now and that you are very serious about stopping it.

I disagree with this. The puppy has displayed an acceptable behavior...chewing on something else. This should be rewarded, not stopped.

Her playtime is over with the HUMAN, not toys, and she should understand that it is ok for her to find something else to do that doesn't involve nomming on human flesh

Poly · 04-18-2008, 07:01 PM

Xeph - the point of positive training methods is to reward a positive behavior, not to reward the stopping of a negative behavior. If you reward the mere stopping of a negative behavior in some way, you may actually encourage the negative behavior to start up again.

The positive behavior we want to encourage here isn't merely stopping the biting. So we don't reward that.

The positive behavior that IS going to be rewarded is playing without biting, or asking for attention without nipping.

The rewards in this case are a toy or continued play time or praise while playing or just paying attention - because those seem to be what motivates this puppy. In other cases, it could be a food reward. Would you recommend rewarding a food-motivated puppy with a treat merely because it stopped biting you? I don't think so. Same principle applies here.

Cobalt · 04-18-2008, 08:49 PM

I am not a trainer so I will tell you what we did. We did the ouch and the ignoring but our puppy was really mouthy so we put Bitter Apple spray on our hands, feet, pant legs etc and that stopped it right away. Mia was really mouthy though. The kids never went on the floor with Mia, that made her really mouthy.

Now she is 10 months and stopped biting long ago. If she does put her mouth on anyone while playing she is gentle. that is the word that we use with her,
"Mia gentle".

Also, we took her to play with other dogs so the older dogs would help teach her to use a soft mouth.

Again, not an expert but it sure worked for us. We went through 2 bottles of bitter apple btw!

Good luck!

MyCharlie · 04-18-2008, 08:59 PM

The yelping and walking away didn't work for us either.... as we were walking away Charlie would grab a hold of our pants leg and we'd be dragging him across the floor! The the yelping just seemed to make him more excited. Bitter Apple is what worked for us too, and we used it not only on ourselves but other items in the house that he was trying to chew on also. But it only works while it is wet, so you obviously have to keep reapplying as necessary.

Be patient, be consistent, and she should get better with time! Charlie was 12 weeks when we got him and the mouthing lasted for maybe two weeks (if I remember correctly).

And remind your daughter to be patient also, that it will be worth it in the end! We have a 13-year-old so I know it's hard for them to understand, but maybe you can relate it to having a younger sibling and how they're annoying sometimes but the good outweighs the bad and in no time she and Maija will have (hopefully!) mouth free play!

Xeph · 04-18-2008, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Would you recommend rewarding a food-motivated puppy with a treat merely because it stopped biting you? I don't think so. Same principle applies here.

Really? Because that's how we teach the puppies in our puppy class. Doesn't take them long to figure out not to bite. And yes, they HAVE learned not to bite, and don't nip just to seek the reward for not doing it.

So I still disagree with your advice.

McBeck · 04-18-2008, 10:06 PM

Wow - thanks for all of the advice! We are following NILIF, but to be honest we don't have it all down pat just yet. The parts we're really good at are we do not play tug, Maija is never allowed on the furniture (not even on our laps), we go through the door first, and we have regular meal and potty times. Maija likes to challenge my daughter on the door issue. Bailey always prevails and I have to say I'm proud of her consistency and persistence. We're working on the other steps, but we're just shy of 2 weeks of puppy ownership, so we're still training ourselves as well as the pup.

We practiced our stern faces this afternoon. Of course that made us both laugh, so we need a little more practice.

I'm going to have my daughter pretend to eat from Maija's bowl before meals, and I'm going to snatch up any toys on the floor as soon as Maija makes a move to nip us. I'm also going to work with my daughter on dropping her play voice and encouraging her to use a softer, less excited voice during play time. I wonder if I can bait her w/ hot dogs too?

I think overcoming the leadership issue is my first priority b/c Maija doesn't nip me the same way she nips my daughter. I'll do some more reading re: being a leader.

On the Bitter Apple usage - I have some already and I've used it on Maija's leash. If you put it on your hands, doesn't it transfer to her toys while you are playing? I was thinking about applying it to my hands, but I was afraid I would ruin all of Maija's toys during playtime.

Cobalt · 04-18-2008, 10:19 PM

We don't put much on and after a few times she knew the smell and stopped mouthing without even having to taste it. Once dry it won't transfer so I didn't worry about the toys. I worried more about the kids getting it in their mouths but it won't hurt, just tastes nasty.

It worked great. We are getting another puppy this summer (am I insane??!) and have the bitter apple on our list.

The other problem we had was leash pulling and a harness solved that one.

BsBoel · 04-21-2008, 09:36 AM

Hello. I can feel your pain. We are going through the nipping stage also. Our pup is going on 12 weeks and nothing has really seemed to work. We've tried it all... ignoring, standing tall/using facial expressions, redirection, thumb in the mouth, holding to calm - I mean everything that's ever been suggested I think.

He just gets in his modes (especially with my wife) where we just can't get him to stop. Yesterday he did this - he would not leave her alone. It looks like he just really wants her attention. He would jump on the couch and nip at her hands, pants, knees etc.. And again nothing worked - she finally just put him in his crate for a timeout. So - with that said I am going to pick up some bitter apple today and see if that works. I'll let you know how it goes.

BsBoel · 04-22-2008, 07:22 AM

Picked up some Bitter Apple spray last night and it seemed to help. If nothing else it dettered him from constant nipping once he got wound up. He would still try, but once he got a taste of it he would shy away. It was funny b/c at times he seemed to pout. But overall I think it was good. It stopped him from nipping, which forced him to play with his other toys. It gave us the opportunity to praise him for doing what he's supposed to as well

We're going to use the same approach tonight.

Cobalt · 04-22-2008, 06:06 PM

Yeah! After a bit she would see the bottle coming and stop. I put it on the legs of furniture now and then just in case she ever decides to take a "taste" of dining table.

I also put it on the neighbor puppy when she was biting his ears. She is a beast.

Poly · 04-23-2008, 05:05 PM

Xeph:

I don't want to get into an argument with you, but you can't be giving the whole story.

If you really followed that, what you would be teaching your puppies is that it is OK to start biting and then stop. And that isn't the behavior we want.

Just from your description, I'm not sure that your puppies actually "figure out not to bite". But with all due respect, if you really do rely on them figuring it out for themselves, that isn't a training method, that's luck.

jesirose · 04-23-2008, 07:37 PM

About the Bitter Apple - put it only on the back of your hand, not your palm and fingers

Oh, and I have been teaching Sadie similar to the way Xeph described and it works fine. We use clicker training and we do reward for stopping a negative behavior in favor of a good one. The puppies want attention and praise. If you ignore them and when they stop you continue to ignore them, they don't know that stopping was good. They will then go to a new behavior to try to get attention.

What I have done with Sadie for getting her to not go after food in people's hands: hold treats in my fist, and hold it out. She started going nuts and biting my hand (not too hard), and the second she stopped going after it, click and treat. After a few times, she would only bite once, then lay down. After a few more sessions, she simply sits or lays down when she sees me hold out food or treats. I can see how that method works, right in front of my eyes. The same applies to most behaviors, jumping, barking, biting, etc.

Xeph · 04-24-2008, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Just from your description, I'm not sure that your puppies actually "figure out not to bite". But with all due respect, if you really do rely on them figuring it out for themselves, that isn't a training method, that's luck.

No, it's conditioning ;-)

We do the same thing with jumping puppies. They jump up, we stand there and we cross our arms and wait. We let THEM think it through and figure it out.

The moment they put all four feet on the floor "YES!" *give cookie* One or two repetitions and in a couple of weeks, the puppies automatically sit everytime someone approaches.

Dogs don't generalize well, but they do generalize moderately, and I see them automatically sitting for strangers instead of jumping because they've figured out that NOT jumping gets them a cookie or pettins xD

Same thing applies to biting :-p

BsBoel · 04-24-2008, 12:25 PM

So Xeph... Qs... so everytime the pup plays with a toy should we give a treat along with verbal praise?

What would you recommend we do when the pup nips?

Just curious? Thanks!

Xeph · 04-24-2008, 12:31 PM

Everytime the puppy plays with a toy, you don't necessarily have to give a treat, but DO let the puppy know they are playing with the correct item.

I even recommend "taking" the toy (be fair, and give a command such as "Give!" first, so you're not "stealing") and then enticing the puppy to play.

This allows the puppy to play with you, teaches them that it is ok for you to take things sometimes, and it also entices the puppy...to nip you! Bad thing right? Actually, by doing this you can give the puppy an "Ouch!! Ah ah!" and present the toy again. When the puppy bites the toy, you IMMEDIATELY praise and reward.

This has worked for all my dogs, and the pups I teach at class as well.

The best thing to do if your puppy doesn't respond to the "puppy yelp" method, and is refusing to chew the toy offered, don't say a word, simply pick up the baby and put him in his kennel for two or three minutes. Walk away and don't even look at him.

Contrary to popular belief, this doesn't make the dog hate the kennel, it simply tells them "Oh, I need to chill for a little while," and it gives you time to put your head back on straight and settle down yourself. Heck, there's nothing wrong with putting a toy in the crate so the pup can entertain himself instead of creating another bad habit (pawing at kennel or barking).

The puppy should come back out happy and exuberant, and be willing to play some more, albeit more gently.

Another member on the board, Bextastic, has a GSD puppy she's having this issue with. She got mad and went to HER room and locked the puppy OUT because she was so upset.

She accidentally stumbled on the gold mine for stopping nipping. Bexie was so upset by her disappearance because of his rough play that when she opened the door back up, there he was, ears back, giving all the body language of "I am sooooooo sorry! I promise I'll be more gentle next time!" And he curled up at her feet and behaved himself.

Dogs are highly social animals, and when you take away their ability to continue being social with you, it's a big singla to them that they've done something wrong. Depriving them of your presence for two or three minutes because they played too roughly is a good way to train them not to nip because they WANT to play with you and be with you.

Taking away their playtime with you remains effective, as they don't want to lose their buddy.

BsBoel · 04-24-2008, 01:16 PM

Great response - thank you! That's nearly exact to the suggestion we got from our puppy class. Just wanted to see what yours was. We will just have to stick with it.

Xeph · 04-24-2008, 02:09 PM

Glad I could help ^_^

McBeck · 05-15-2008, 10:01 PM

Thanks to everyone for the tips. Things are going much better re: the nipping. I did finally identify some of the nipping as her herding instinct. We've made great progress. She still nips occasionally at our pant legs if they flap in the breeze, but she has totally stopped nipping at ankles and she will stop going after hands/arms if we squeal & then curl up on the couch and ignore her. This has been a great for my daughter. My daughter is now confident enough to play with Maija on the floor b/c she knows she can retreat to the couch if things get too rough. Maija is really figuring this out and the nipping has diminished greatly. She still occasionally gets skin, but she's much gentler and we're working toward a totally soft mouth.

Maija no longer challenges Bailey at the door; she always follows. She responds well to Bailey's newfound authority voice, and the two work training sessions daily. We're getting a lot better at NILIF and Maija seems totally content with us. I'm looking forward to seeing Maija and my daughter grow up together. Bailey has expressed interest in Rally and Agility; I think the two are going to make an amazing duo.