APRI vs. AKC registration?

minschnauzercookie

Easy girl...no growling...I was asking for advice...not a lashing.

Snowshoe

First, I'm not a dog. No need to call me "girl" or tell me to stop "growling." I find that insulting.

Secondly, even though I wish I could take credit for that, I didn't write it myself.

If you click the links on the bottom of the post, you'd know that. I always cite my sources.

minschnauzercookie

It seemed harsh...source or not. I wasn't claiming to be a breeder or even asking how to become one. Anyhow- your first post made me think and the next one was just over the top. I came to this site to ask for advice from people who love dogs but I expected them to be nice to people too. Thanks anyway.

minschnauzercookie

Thank you I will take that into consideration.

Keno's Mom

Cookie,

It's hard to sometimes stop and count to 10 when you have people coming here (or in real life) wanting to breed just one time. Too many "one time" puppies/dogs are sitting in shelters right now.

We want the breeders who are serious about their breed and want to improve both the health and type of the breed to be the ones that are breeding. Its too much work, expense, etc. to just let your dog have a litter - or put the male out for stud. You should be responsible for EVERY puppy you bring into this world. And a good breeder with neuter/spay before they go to their new homes. They will test their own dogs for health problems (which can get quite expensive for clearances). The goal should be to produce BETTER then the parents - not the opposite.

If you want another puppy, go to the breed rescue groups or take a look at Petfinder.com or your local shelter to adopt. You'll be much happier that way.

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Curbside Prophet

Elsa is a product of a puppy mill. She's now almost 2, healthy, and spayed. There's no way for me or even someone with a health guarantee for their dog to be able to predict if she will be sick tomorrow or later in the future. This is something every dog owner must consider when getting a dog regardless. Therefore, if your dog is healthy now, be happy, and love her regardless of what her future may hold. I would hope, and you should too, that your dog will live a happy and healthy life for no other reason than because you're there. So enjoy this dog as you would any loved pet.

DogAdvocat

The problem is that no responsible breeder (one that was breeding for health and temperament, and actually knew how to do so) would register their dogs with fly-by-night registries like the APRI, who will basically register anything that accompanies a fee. Many puppymillers abandoned the AKC ship when the AKC started being a little stricter on their own requirements, and most of these sub-standard breeders will give excuses like they didn't like the AKC policies or they had an argument with the AKC, instead of just admitting that they are irresponsible and poor quality breeders.

It isn't a foregone conclusion that a breeder registering with the AKC is a responsible breeder either, but there's a far better chance of it than if they register with the other bogus registries. The choice of registry is only the beginning of the decision on whether a breeder is responsible or not, and whether they are producing quality puppies.

So, the reason for having a dog spayed who isn't AKC is because it wasn't bred responsibly and therefore doesn't have quality worth passing on to another generation. This doesn't mean, by any means, that your dog isn't wonderful and a great pet, and appears healthy on the surface -- what it means is that she doesn't have the excellence to warrant passing on. And a healthy dog at two years, doesn't indicate what she's going to be at 5 years, 8 years, or 12 years. Example? One of my dogs was perfectly healthy until the age of 5, when he developed back problems (dachshund) that required surgery and he was paralyzed for a year. If I had bred him, he would have passed that on to his offspring, and he could have produced first and second generation dogs that would have suffered and their owners would have spent a small fortune trying to help their dogs -- and if their dogs had gone on to produce more dogs before they knew???? At the age of 10, my dachshund developed pancreatic failure, and nothing could be done, so we had to euthanize him. It broke my heart, and it was all because a breeder decided to breed what s/he thought was healhty young dogs - assuming they even cared that much. It's not uncommon for puppymillers to breed anything that can produce, no matter how bad off it was. One puppymill auctioneer was heard telling breeders that the dog for sale was blind, but it sure didn't stop her from producing puppies.

Example 2, my perfectly healthy Bichon Frise, at the age of 8 developed luxated lens (disease of the eye) which caused blindness, not to mention terrible pain, and the other eye was also affected, but she went blind in that eye when a board certified ophthalmologist tried to save her sight by removing the remaining lens. This is a hereditary disease, but the breeder either didn't bother to have her dogs tested, or she didn't care. And again, if I'd bred my dog, she would have passed it on to her offspring. But then I could say, at the age of 2, that she was perfectly healthy too, just like yours.

There is so much more that needs to go into the decision to breed besides just whether the dog appears healthy at a young age, what registry it's with, how cute it is, or whether friends/relatives want one. And when you say you don't want a show dog or show puppies, that "shows" us that you aren't interested in finding out if your dog is of a quality that is likely to produce quality puppies. The pound is full of "healthy" dogs that were bred to "healthy" dogs whose owners didn't care about shows or registries, or anything else that would have proved their dog to be worth founding the next generation on.

Snowshoe

Excellent post, DA.

Yes, Keno's Mom- you're totally right about the needing to take a breath and count to 10.

I think what got me was on that one post where she said she didn't care if her dog was quality, or whether the puppies would be quality. I admit, when I read that I sighed on the inside and thought, "Aren't there enough poor quality dogs in the world? Do we really need a litter more?"

So yeah, the information I chose to dispense to her was from a breeder who has fiesty views on dog breeding.

I PROMISED that I was going to take a sabbatical from the BYB threads... but every time I see something like that, I hit the "submit reply" button before I know what's going on!

workingdog

Anyone can start a dog registry and put on shows.

Keno's Mom

Snow I know exactly what you mean. I do the same thing. I guess its cause of being in the cat fancy and trying to educate people on quality. Just kinda spills over to the dogs too - same principles!

DaisyRanger

I read a few of the posts on this thread and I'm really not too interested in reading the entire thread. In my opinion the AKC is just as phoney as any of the other dog registries everyone seems to be buzzing about, not to mention they are complete snobs! My family has had boxers for many, many years and have a pure love for the breed. Growing up with them all my life, I had an AKC registered boxer who was the most gorgeous dog I've ever seen. When I looked at his pedigree I was completely baffled by the fact that this supposed champion bloodline boxer had a WHITE boxer in its line. Here is a copy and paste from the AKC site itself as to the disqualifications of the breed:

Color
The colors are fawn and brindle. Fawn shades vary from light tan to mahogany. The brindle ranges from sparse but clearly defined black stripes on a fawn background to such a heavy concentration of black striping that the essential fawn background color barely, although clearly, shows through (which may create the appearance of reverse brindling). White markings, if present, should be of such distribution as to enhance the dog's appearance, but may not exceed one-third of the entire coat. They are not desirable on the flanks or on the back of the torso proper. On the face, white may replace part of the otherwise essential black mask, and may extend in an upward path between the eyes, but it must not be excessive, so as to detract from true Boxer expression. The absence of white markings, the so-called "plain" fawn or brindle, is perfectly acceptable, and should not be penalized in any consideration of color. Disqualifications Boxers that are any color other than fawn or brindle. Boxers with a total of white markings exceeding one-third of the entire coat.

There it is in black and white. My boxer developed cancer and had to be put down. I never bred him....had the white boxer not been in his ancestry, I might have. I certainly had offers to breed him everywhere I went. Did I love him any less?? Hell no! He was the best damn dog anyone could ever hope for. Was he smart?? He was the smartest damn dog on the block and the most attractive. I don't care what a piece of paper says. NOBODY can guarantee anything! Does a marriage certificate guarantee your marriage? Its just paper. Paper is meaningless.

Now I hear so much crap about people who get their dogs from puppymills or where ever else. What the heck does it matter where you get your dog from? Its how responsible you are when you have it, how well you train it, and love it.

I volunteered my time to my local Humane Society. I had pure satisfaction walking those poor dogs whenever I could go down there. Its not their fault they are there. If they could have chosen, do you think they'd have?? I seriously doubt it! Month after month, I saw so many different types of dogs in and out of there. My heart reached out to a little Pekingnese--who was picked up as a stray. My guess is that he escaped and ran away from home. Yes, he is PURE BREED. And let me tell you, I wish I could find out who his owners were! He was so badly matted and tested heartworm positive. I seriously inquired about adopting him. Yes, I paid a small fee to adopt him. I could have purchased 3 more dogs from a breeder, I had the money to do so. To me, it wasn't about that. It was about rescuing this poor dog from his situation and giving him a future...a loving stable home to call his own. The staff tried to talk me out of adopting him telling me how many dogs they get back dead because the owners who adopt heartworm positive dogs don't really know how to take care of them after the treatment they undergo to rid them. I was bound and determined. If I didn't think I could have handled this responsibility, I NEVER would have sought him. To date, 2 years later, he is blessed with a beautiful family and home. I love him to pieces. I have no papers, other than his adoption papers, that secure our bond. We don't need any. He is a beautiful dog! His hair grew in nicely and he gets the proper heartworm pills on time every month. I rescued him and that is enough for me. I am proud and fullfilled just knowing that.

People like to flash AKC papers all around the place but they don't make you wise or responsible. Just means you are ignorant when you don't take the time to educate yourself about your dog.

Acquiring a pure breed from a breeder doesn't necessarily mean that you obtained a pup from a reputible person. The AKC pushes buying your puppies from breeders only. There ARE good petstores out there and I, for one, will not rule out ever buying from one. How can you be 100% sure and/or trusting in people these days?? I do not put trust in people. When someone wins my trust, its because they earned it. Otherwise, this person is just as phoney as the next one.

I'm tired of snobs. For all we know the APRI could have been born because they got tired of AKC. I hope some day another registry will be good enough to break up that little clique and monopoly they have going.

Pets are to be loved, pure and simple. Should it matter if our dog is a champion or not?? Ask any proud pet owner what they think of their dog and they will tell you they have a champion in their own right. Enough said, I'm off the soap box for the day. Thanks.

Kerry

Snowshoe, I don't see AKC registration as being anything great.
"There is a widely held belief that "AKC" or "AKC papers" and quality are one and the same. This is not the case. AKC is a registry body. A registration certificate identifies the dog as the offspring of a known sire and dam, born on a known date. It in no way indicates the quality or state of health of the dog." - from the AKC website.
There is also a good chance that the breeder is not being truthful about the information on the slip....AKC doesn't really check. They just count on the integrity of the breeder.

Curbside Prophet

Yes, it does matter if the dog is proven in a ring. To insure that your breeder is responsible, they must prove their breeding program by having their dogs judged amongt their peers. Whether it's in the show ring, or in trials, the responsible breeder will always test their breeding program. You are correct in saying that an owner needs to do their homework, however, if you're going to buy a purebred, it's incorrect to suggest that proof of the dog's worth isn't necessary. It is necessary as that's what responsible breeders do. It may be snobby to flash pedigrees, but if they've done their homework, and bought their dog from the best breeder possible, that breeder should be rewarded with dog owners who are willing to flash their pedigree. For no other reason than to show support for responsible breeders. And I'm sorry, but no responsible breeder will sell pups from a pet store, period. No one is saying these dogs don't deserve love, but the breeders who produce them don't deserve our hard earned money. And before you generalize all show ring breeders as snobs, maybe you should look into what they do for their breed before criticising them. Yes, there are exceptions, and good breeders are hard to find, and no there isn't a 100% gurantee on people. But if you do your homework like you suggested, reputable breeders do show their dogs in one arena or another. So unless you're going to demand more from all breeders, you might want to hold back criticising those who actually are responsible...like many show ring breeders.

MagicToller

http://www.akc.org/about/depts/investigations.cfm

Personally, I have mixed feeling on the entire situation. I know that the AKC in no way guarantees soundness of the dogs registered with their seal, but it does account for something. As an entire entity, I trust it a thousand times more than I can trust miller registries. There are crooked people involved in all registries who are out to get money based on reputation and demand for a high quality animal, but that doesn't tarnish the entire registry. The AKC provides sanctioned events to create venues to prove dogs in conformation, agility, obedience, lurecoursing, etc. as well as rescue foundations and events to reinforce responsible ownership and ethical breeding. I can't say the same for some of these Miller Registries.

Red lights should be going off in your head if advertisements chant "AKC Papers!".

Some of the things you want to look for is..

"Dogs proven in many venues including : .."
"Years breeding : .."
"Litters a year : .."
"Following genetic testing has been done : .."

DaisyRanger

I will reiterate from my initial post, AKC never should have allowed a white boxer to be registered...yet, I had a boxer with AKC registration and his pedigree named a WHITE boxer in his ancestry. Anyone who knows Boxers, knows that all white boxers are disqualifications for AKC registration. Had they done their homework instead of just issuing papers, they'd have realized they registered a boxer that never should have been. What then? You still think they are reputable?? I surely don't.

Ohh one more thing, my so-called AKC champion blood line boxer was obtained from a breeder too.

Curbside Prophet

No, I actually think the "breeder" is not reputable. But in it's current state, the AKC does not have the power to verify all breeders are reputable. So if you're point is that you should know that a breeder who calls their boxers "white boxers" isn't a reputable breeder, I would agree with you. But to point fingers at the AKC, I would say is not the appropriate place to point fingers. You would be closer to the target by pointing fingers at the individual/specific breed clubs, but the responsibility still remains on the breeders...where it should be. It would be nice if the AKC could act as a governing agency to control breeding practices, but I don't see that happening anytime soon, although they are making efforts to organize information better. Regardless, AKC papers mean nothing without all the other checks necessary in finding a pup...to that point I agree. However, to claim they are entirely worthless based on one anecdotal example, I'd say is hasty. As a registry of registries, The AKC is the best we have here in the states, with very few exceptions, and APRI is definitely not an exception.

DaisyRanger

Hogwash! They WERE responsible for allowing papers on a dog that was clearly written on the pedigree as WHITE, a disqualification. The breeder was very irresponsible, I agree, but AKC was just as irresponsible for allowing these papers to go through. If they don't regulate, they are just as phoney as the other pet registries that are being dis-counted. That was my point and will remain as such.

Curbside Prophet

Care to give any anecdotal evidence on how you're perfect? Or do you have a plan on how the AKC can give guarantees, or how and why they should interfere in the customer/breeder transaction? Because if you're point is that the AKC is "phoney" because of one obvious anecdotal example of an error without proof of intention, I still contend that's hasty, and will remain as such.

DaisyRanger

You have no way of ever knowing that this is just ONE error. How many dogs do they register each day, week, month...or year??!! If they handle them all the way they handled this one, god help us all. We'll all have been had. LMAO!!!

Proceed with caution when purchasing a pet from ANYWHERE and proceed with caution when papering your dog...AKC or otherwise!

Curbside Prophet

I can agree with these points..."IF" they handled every registration with an intention this way it would be a problem. Regardless, the reponsibility still remains between the breeder/customer...period. And I whole heartedly agree that everyone should proceed with caution when buying any dog. As it always seems to come down to this: (Where good dogs come from.)Where good dogs come from. - Dog Forums - all breed dog forum.

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