Explanation of "Heat"

atldoglover

2 Things

1. To dogsgalore and turlc:The two puppies that I am getting are not from the same litter at all- they have different moms and dads and the moms and dads are in no way related.

2. "You may indeed be a nice person, but in this subject, you need more education"-blackgavotte- As I stated in the post earlier, I realize that I need educating-that is why I am here- but as I tell my students, "it's not what you say, but how you say it" I have never stated that I was above education, in fact, through all of this- I have listened and taken everything with a grain of salt.

poofywoof

After reading all the threads on this subject, I would like to invite anyone thinking about breeding to volunteer some time in at least one animal shelter in their area. Or volunteer as a board member for your local humane society. What you will see there will make you change your mind about owning pets or breeding pets. You will be amazed by the many puppy buyers that start out so well intentioned; But then the novelty wears off, there are so many messes to clean up and vet care is "so expensive" ... Many pets in shelters started out in well meaning homes
There is a saying, " don't breed or buy while shelter pets die". Food for thought, animal shelter experience will change your outlook considerably. I dare you...

poofywoof

Thinking you are a breeder because you have a dog and a bitch is like thinking you are a carpenter because you have a hammer & nails! Pause a moment and consider it.

AnimalLoverCatRescuer

This is my very first post but I just wanted to say that as much as I disagree with breeding so called "designer" mutts, at least you are open to suggestions and willing to learn. You are just getting your pups and you will have 2 years to learn all you can about them. Plus you will have a mentor, the original breeder, who can hopefully help you along.

The tough thing you have to deal with is having an intact male and female in the same house. He can get her pregnant at any time before the 2 year period and it will be extremely difficult when she is in heat. I have heard of males destroying fences and breaking thru walls to get to females in heat. Be very careful! We don't want to see you back here in a year saying oops the male got at the female and now she is pregnant before the tests are done and they are 2 years old.

It is so very important to have those health certifications done even though they are EXTREMELY expensive to do. You are going to go into huge debt testing both dogs and then keeping all the pups. Even if you sold them you would still barely break even, maybe not even close. Keep that in mind.

This is probably the most peaceful discussion I have seen about his topic.

Curbside Prophet

I concur! This is what happens when both sides of the story are expressed intelligently, and people are willing to listen.

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Snowshoe

I know I am new here, but I would like to comment.

First off, this is definately the most civilized discussion I have EVER seen on a forum in regards to "hybrid" breeding, and I think that says alot for you all.

Now on to the OP- I know that sometimes people can come across as very harsh, and that it's easy to misconstrue things online (ie intent and emotion). However, people here only want the best for the animals. After you've been here for a while and things really start sinking in, you will look back at this post and think to yourself, "Wow, I've come so far in my thinking."

Some things you have posted have raised questions in the minds of the experienced posters. After all, you are breeding "hybrid" dogs. There are many dogs in shelters that are "hybrid" mixes. I think people want to understand WHY your mixed breed dogs would be better then any other mixed breed, and also why you'd take the risk of bringing possibly unwanted puppies into the world.

I'm not saying that YOU wouldn't want them, but facing facts one puppy is VERY hard to take care of, especially if you work full time. Keeping the 6 or 7 puppies your bitch would produce, plus keeping your bitch and stud would be overwhelming for anyone. And, if you don't keep all of them, finding good homes is a trial, even for an experienced breeder.

Also, no matter how many dogs you have that are the same breed as your beloved pet who is now at the bridge, it is very likely that they will all have different temperments. Especially because they are a hybrid with no standard. You may end up getting these dogs, and realize that they do not live up to the image you have in your head of the dog you are trying to replace.

Please do not mistake me, I am not minimizing your loss. I know how hard it is to loose a loved one. Just make sure you are engaging in breeding for all of the right reasons: for example, you want to better the breed.

As for the rest, people have pretty much gone over the things I was thinking when I read your post. I'm really glad you've kept an open mind. Please continue to do so.

dogsgalore

I agree, on the other board I visit the people there are HORRIBLE and Im not the first to say that, when I mentioned what happened the other day with the attack on my dogs I was bashed like crazy for 80 posts!!!, yes you can breed your dogs, but should you?? I would say NO, I have one unaltered female and a neutered male, so I dont have to worry on my home end, she will be spayed at 18months (all my breeders reccomed it) but like the last post keep an open mind and if you are breeding for $$ think again, my friend spent alot of $$ to breed her rottweiler bitch and 5 months later still had all but 1 pup he had 10...

Kerri6398

Dogsgalore- Just curious, why do all of your breeders reccommend spaying at 18months? What are there reasons behind this? I am just so curious because so many vets/breeders reccommend spaying before there first heat so that they have a lower risk of cancer.

blackgavotte

Kerri, I am jumping in here just because I have a few minutes, Dogsgalore, excuse me, just do your post as if I hadn't stopped by. One thing that I know for sure that is happening is that the powers that be, decided that when we spay and neuter some dogs too early ( in their opinion ) ( before 6 months and for some breeds before a year, especially the giants ) that there can be, in some individuals some lessening of development of bone, also there may be some more time needed to lose some of the juvenile traits, in some dogs.

I have a real problem with this for mainly one reason, the more people who have dogs coming into heat the more unwanted litters there will be. Females have been spayed at 6-7 months for many years now, and I for one, don't give a tinker's fart if some females don't lift their leg while peeing, or some males squat while peeing, or if this causes them to take just a bit longer to fully grow up.

The big picture is far more important than these trivial things. Many thousands of dogs have gone on to gain obedience or working titles after being spayed or neutered at 6 months or so, I believe that their brains do develop normally regardless. I do have a problem with the 3-4 month spaying and neutering that is coming about nowadays, again that's been driven by the crisis situation of the pounds and shelters, again due to careless breeding.

Okay, I'll butt out now, and say no more.

LabLady101

Actually, the recommedation by most Large Breed and Giant Breed breeders not to neuter until 18 months or spay before the first cycle really has nothing to do with "juvenile traits" and everything to do with their bone & joint and urinary tract health. The growth plates do not close until around 18 months. If you don't wait to neuter until then, you could possibly be setting your dog up for some major joint problems. And, if a female has an inverted or recessed vulva and is spayed before her first cycle, you've just step her up for a life full of UTIs and Vaginitis that would have easy been "cured" with her first cycle. So, actually these are not such "trivial things". However, I do realize that some people cannot handle an unneutered dog or an unspayed female responsibly for that long and it upsets me as well that their carelessness and irresponsibility ends up in the shelters.

Just my 2c,
Darcy

blackgavotte

Lablady, if you will reread my post you will see that what I was referring to when I spoke of trivial things, is the leg lifting and squatting debate.

There is just no perfect answer to this spaying question nowadays with the overpopulation of dogs and the obscenity of the tragic lives some of these dogs live from birth to death. Quite frankly, this latest trend of spaying and neutering as early as 3 months or so, is just as sickening to me. We'll never know how many innocent puppies die on the table, since their baby systems cannot stand the anaesthetic or surgery.

If I knew people really understood how to prevent breedings while a female goes through that first heat, I personally would prefer to leave females intact till then, and males intact until around a year old. I realize fully that then you increase the incidence of breast caner for females, but my gut feeling is still that it is probably best all round to leave the uterus and testicles there until around a year of age. Probably in the Giant breeds until 18 months, yes, that seems like a sensible thing to do, they are still doing a lot of growing until then.

However, I know how many unplanned litters will be born as a result of this, and I wish I had the perfect answer. I wish this were a perfect world too, and its not. Perhaps greater minds than ours will one day find a way to solve the problems of the pounds and shelters, and of animal abuse and cruelty in all its forms, world wide.

Kerri6398

Thanks for your thoughts on that......

Lablady- The reason for me asking this question is acutally becuase a friend of mine has a puppy and it has vaginitis/tucked vulva. One vet reccommended that she wait until her first cycle to spay that way it could have the chance on its own, without surgery to become untucked. Then she got a second opinion on this and the other vet said NO WAY, SPAY HER NOW!!! So she is right now torn between the two and is asking for my help. I have been looking all over the web for answers and everyone has a different opinion on this. Or I guess you could say a different approach. She is scared with the fact that they could get cancer earlier on if they are not spayed but her pup has so many bladder problems just from that tucked vulva. I felt as though she should wait, let her go into heat once but keep her confined and then spay her before she could go into another cycle. What are your thoughts on that? She is a very careful individual and 100% believes in spaying if not breeding to better the breedand be responsible. So unplanned litters is out of the question, she would never let that happen her main concern is the health of her pups life.

LabLady101

I actually have this very problem myself with my own pup Blue (although situation is a bit different since Blue is more than a pet and will not be spayed). That vet that told your friend to spay now is CRAZY and does not have her pup's best interest at heart at all!!! All he's probably looking at is the money from the cost of the spay and the further care the pup will most likely need after she's doomed to a lifetime of UTIs, Vaginitis, and antibiotics. Either that or the cost of corrective surgery which is an added expense (up to $300 or $400 in some areas). Also, it has been proven that the increased risk of cancer is very trivial after just one cycle. I would definately wait until after the first cycle and then reassess the situation, but most likely the cycle will take care of the tucked vulva. After the end of first cycle (usually about a month from beginning to end), she should wait one month to have her spayed.

To tell you the truth, I actually switched vets over this very situation and I can tell you I've come to realize what horrible service my dogs were receiving from the previous vet. I mean, after 4 puppy wellness exams over 2 months time, our other vet did not catch that Blue has a recessed (not quite inverted, but just recessed) vulva (which I had suspected but wasn't quite sure). But, the worst part about it is she was so quick to push long term antibiotics on our puppy and tell us that she could schedule a corrective surgery. Not only that, but she would not even hear of any other remedies besides the antibiotics- saying they were of absolutely no benefit to Blue. I was (and still am) very upset about it all. But, I'm glad to say that after 2 weeks on a home regimine (if you're interested in it you can PM me for more info), Blue tested free and clear of her UTI and Vaginitis at our new vet (something that 3 weeks of Clavamox could not clear up)! To top it off, the new vet said that our home regimine was actually quite a good solution after he looked at the components!

Sorry to rant a bit, but it is SOOO important in these situations that owners of females in this situation are educated enough to make the right decision for their girls.

Hope it helps,
Darcy

pupskersandhutch

Personally Id rather breed cats then dogslol** . I had the same problem with a vet they did not Properly take her ovaries out and she kept going into heat and we had no freaking idea why she had crusty blood down in her privates. we took her to another vet and he said if we didn't bring her in she would have died it was that BAD ughh vets can be so stupid and handicapped sometime I SWEAR!!!!.

juls

This is exactly what is happening to my puppy right now. I originally planned on spaying my puppy when she turned 6 months. However, after a series of bladder infections/ 1 case of vaginitis, the vet recommended I let her go through heat once. I am wondering if I should even wait through a couple cycles. Anyone else have opinions on this?

LabLady101

Nope, it should correct itself with the first cycle and then I would have her spayed. The risk of cancer is only trivially increased after one cycle, but it does go up after that. So, one cycle, then spay. Also, be prepared to watch her 100% of the time during her cycle to prevent an unwanted litter. Even if you think there are no intact males in the area, there are always unknown strays. So, be careful and good luck!

juls

Thank you! I didn't even know not spaying ups the chance of cancer. I'm not really looking forward to when she goes through heat but luckily, I'll be off work by then.

juls

How appropriate that I just asked about going into heat. My puppy just tried to hump my arm- I've read this is a dominance thing so I pushed her off and told her "No!" And then I had her lick my hand and praised her. This is the first time that she's tried to do this on a person (or anything that I've seen, at least) so my question is: Is this an indication that she is going to go into heat soon? Today was her 6 month birthday so I know it could start anytime now.

Dogged

In my experience, puppies do very well with anesthesia and surgery. Probably better. I have had a few dogs spayed at 3 and 4 months, and they did just fine. I worked in a hospital that sceduled a whole days surgery time to do a whole litter of 3 month old hound mix pups. It went so fast, we were done in half the time, and the pups were awake and playing with each other within about an hour. They recovered much better than older dogs and had no complications.

I haven't heard that early spay neuter is any more dangerous than being done at 6 months.

blackgavotte

A lot has to do with the surgeon, as far as the safety issue of the actual surgery itself. Baby systems tend to handle anesthetics better after they are around six months old, , its believed the liver handles the anesthetic better then. However, I must admit:

I worked for a vet many years ago who did a lot of cropping, a lot of puppies at 7, 8 and 9 weeks old ! Some were very thin pups too, I used to cringe. However, this particular man was sooooo experienced I remember us only ever losing one puppy. The other vets in this hospital adamantly refused to put a pup that young under anesthetic . In the last clinic I worked in, up to 2 years ago, it was an AAHA hospital, state of the art, they also preferred not to anesthetize pups under 5 1/2 - to 6 months old. The feeling was still the same, the liver handles it better when the pups are that age.

There is more and more evidence about side effects when the uterus and testes are taken away too early, mostly it has to do with the bone development in large and giant breeds, and now the awareness of the UTI problem that many female puppies have. I am seriously against leaving dogs too late to be altered, mainly because I know darn well that there are going to be many, many more unwanted litters, and more shelter puppies because of it, but even I have to admit that with certain breeds and certain individual dogs, its best waited on.

Also, dare I say it, there is a big difference in a good quality clinic with experienced vets on board, doing very careful surgery, and the sort of surgery that is sometimes done on these shelter puppies. I don't know about where you are, but I can tell you that there are still many areas where these pups and kittens are surgically altered by, shall we say, less- than-well-experienced vets, under not great conditions, nor even properly sterile conditions.

We will never have the empirical data to prove our differing opinions one way or the other. There are not really double blind studies and long term studies being done on this problem. But my own gut feeling is that to take away a uterus and testicles at a young age of 10-20 weeks, is absolutely not right. Even if these puppies survive the surgery, we just don't know for sure how many changes are affected, nor how much, when those growing-up hormones are lost so early.

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