An Idea about the Rules.. Maybe off base?

GroovyGroomer777 · 07-14-2009, 11:40 AM

I second that motion.

Actually I second this whole thread.

I almost always sit in the sidelines and observe here, without "speaking" up. I wouldn't call it out of fear, but....

And I always know which new posters are going to be banned for simply being a PITA or contreversial...is being a PITA against forum rules? I actually got a pm from a banned member saying "you told me so"

RonE · 07-14-2009, 11:46 AM

Personally, I think Elana would make an excellent moderator, except that I think she may be too smart to want the job.

Offering a sincere suggestion on this sub-forum should never be construed as "arguing." If the answer is "no" and you continue to offer the same suggestion over and over, it is arguing. I believe you do understnad the distinction, Elana, and I don't think you've even come close to crossing that line.

rosemaryninja · 07-14-2009, 11:55 AM

Quote:

And I always know which new posters are going to be banned for simply being a PITA or contreversial...is being a PITA against forum rules? I actually got a pm from a banned member saying "you told me so

Unfortunately, I have seen more than one poster get shafted for being a sh*t-stirrer.

Elana is right. The lines defining what warrants a ban, "naughty points" and a warning are far too blur.

zimandtakandgrrandmimi · 07-14-2009, 12:01 PM

just as a clarification

the first sentence of my post was dead serious. I find Elana's perceptions and such to be extremely keen and fair minded. if anyone should be a mod that's not a mod already...its her.

the second sentence of my post was the one that warranted the smilie. As if becoming a forum moderator *lessens* one's worries lol...

Elana55 · 07-14-2009, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zimandtakandgrrandmimi

I have an idea..make Elana a mod and then she won't have to worry about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonE

Personally, I think Elana would make an excellent moderator, except that I think she may be too smart to want the job..

Well, thanks for the vote of confidence. You guys have a lot more faith in me than my Cats do.

When would I do this (ah time sweet time... LOL) and on dial up everyone could jump in with U-Tube Porn videos of dogs doing the Strip Tease with an audience of cats watching and I could not see them and so ban the offending party....

And how much does it pay?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonE

Offering a sincere suggestion on this sub-forum should never be construed as "arguing." If the answer is "no" and you continue to offer the same suggestion over and over, it is arguing. I believe you do understnad the distinction, Elana, and I don't think you've even come close to crossing that line.

I will only argue a point over and over until I get my way.... (is there a sitick figure gif that throws itself on the floor and has a tantrum I can insert here?).

Quote:

Originally Posted by zimandtakandgrrandmimi

just as a clarification

the first sentence of my post was dead serious. I find Elana's perceptions and such to be extremely keen and fair minded. if anyone should be a mod that's not a mod already...its her.

Thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zimandtakandgrrandmimi

the second sentence of my post was the one that warranted the smilie. As if becoming a forum moderator *lessens* one's worries lol...

A thankless and brutal task I am sure. Besides, we don't have moving smilies and no image of a moving big, hairy, banning stick (complete with dried blood on it).

Wait a minute.. isn't swinging that stick Positive Punishment????

Curbside Prophet · 07-14-2009, 12:25 PM

I may respond collectively for the mods, but I do so from my POV.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elena

I am often unsure of the line. In fact, I figured that because this thread could be construed as critical of the forum, I almost figured it would be deleted and I would be sent packing.

This would beg the question, what evidence do you have to suggest this is true? Often there IS indiscretion that precedes a thread closure that may not be evident, nor should it be, to forum members. There is no indiscretion preceding this one to even raise the question.

Quote:

13. Thread Hijacking and Thread Crapping is not tolerated here under any circumstance.
Those who "Hijack" and "Crap" other member's threads and continue to go off topic will be warned. Taking other member's thread off topic and spamming them up is a very rude and ignorant practice and behavior of that sort is not tolerated here. Respect your fellow forum members topics.

for #13, Often a discussion will naturally segue into a different area or will become specific to a side topic associated with the original. Yes.. it veers and may not be exactly on the original topic, but if it is realted and everyone is having a good time discussing it politely albeit sometimes passionately, is it worthy editing and should people be banned or have "naughty Points" added? I don't know. I think not but I do not own the forum.

There is no precedence of members being banned for off-topic discussion. There’s very little precedence of this rule being enforced in general. If you could provide an example, perhaps we could discuss it. But at no point should a request to start a new thread, and a threat that those who do not follow, should be misconstrued that the topic can not be discussed at all “or you will be banned”. It would seem reasonable that if the topic is worth discussing it will survive outside of the original topic.

Quote:

14. Arguing, flaming, insulting or threatening a Staff members is grounds for permanent banning.

for #14, When is something an argument and when is it an impassioned discussion? What one person finds insulting another may find simply amusing or take it as a different view point. I never know where the line is and have ceased to enjoin in the more impassioned threads for concern of being considered argumentative and being faced with banning when a Mod is also a poster in the impassioned discussion.

An argument is simple...when a moderator decides an enforcement of the rules shall follow, and that member disagrees with the enforcement of that rule, this is an argument. Asking for clarification in the rule, or the reason for enforcement of the rule is not an argument, nor is it viewed as one. However, the reason may not be one worth sharing on the forum.

Opinions on a topic have always been allowed, even in spite of a member’s misinterpretations of the opinion (argument) in another. A moderator may act to enforce the forum rules when members are becoming contentious and personal. The interpretation of such is not open for debate, and if those interpretations are questioned, it should be done privately via PM.

Quote:

2. If you're caught insulting someone, no matter what the reason, warning points will be added to your account. Continued offenses will result in a temporary ban, or permanent ban at the discretion of the moderators.

for #2 Again.. what is an insult to one person might be a simple dissenting view point to another. Sometimes the line is obvious. Sometimes it is not.

It should be obvious that when a mod intends to enforce a rule, and announces such, the line as decided by the moderator is drawn. Again, there is no precedence of a member being banned for clarifying the rules. There is a precedence for banning members that do not wish to comply with the enforcement of the rules.

Quote:

3. If you disregard an Administrator or a Moderators decision or do anything that directly hurts the forums you will have warning points added to your account. We aren't here to have you scream at us, argue with us or flame us. We are here to help you, let us help you!

for #3 I certainly agree with flaming etc. Mods.. I think Moderating is probably a thankless task for the most part. However, sometimes I see a warning posted by a Mod and I do not understand what is being warned against or who was offending and wonder if it is me (usually it is obvious, but not always). When that happens, I am afriad to ask WHY because I figure that big old banning stick will come down on my head because I dared to ask. Asking might be construed as disagreeing with or arguing with a Moderator decision. I walk away at that point.

Again, it begs the question…what evidence is there that members are banned for asking for clarification of the rules? If you weren’t reached privately by the mod, why would you suspect the warning was not meant for everyone to follow?

FourIsCompany · 07-14-2009, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curbside Prophet

There is no precedence of members being banned for off-topic discussion. There’s very little precedence of this rule being enforced in general. If you could provide an example, perhaps we could discuss it.

In this thread (Competition Obedience and Posit. Reinf. training Discussion), several people said they used a "balanced" approach to dog training. You then defined the term "Balanced" as:

""Balanced", in a training sense, means using punishment equally with reinforcement."

Those of us who use the term and apply it to our training methods defined what WE mean by the term, which led to defining some of the terms around the concept of dog training that we use. A very logical progression of the subject as related to the original post, IMO.

You then told a few members that what they were saying wasn't worthy of discussion and not the topic of discussion, and out of place in the discussion, though it was not at all clear that this was the case or why. And then, you became sarcastic and threatening.

Your final warning came with:

"Any discussion relating to how trainers define/qualify their labels (this part of your post was added after my post below) needs to move into a new thread. Any posts after this one will be deleted and repeat offenders will be banned."

I don't know how we can discuss training without defining the terms. What's wrong with defining the terms we're using? How is that off topic? Especially when you were the first one to start defining the term "balanced" for those of us who were using it?

This is why I'm confused. I posted in the thread saying how confused I was and my post was summarily deleted.

My post:

"I have no idea what is being referred to as off topic, and I have no way of knowing what is subjectively being judged as "off topic" in this particular thread, as it seems like a smooth, flowing, civil discussion about the different methods and levels of the efficacy of positive reinforcement dog training to me.

So I will not continue to walk on eggshells under the threat of being banned. I don't even know if CP is talking to me or another poster. I have no way of knowing.

I would like to thank you, Elana and others for the great discussion and information I've received, even if it did veer slightly off topic a time or two. That's how discussions go. And if I get banned for this off topic post, then I had a good time here and wish you all well."

That was one of the most educational (for me) threads I've been involved in since joining this board and it was ruined because people wanted to define the terms we were using and you determined that to be off topic, even though you were the first to do so.

I don't know whether or not anyone was banned or "got dirty marks" for their participation in that thread, but the threat was there, and I do know that I felt stifled and confused as to what we were "allowed" to discuss and to whom your warnings were addressed.

txcollies · 07-14-2009, 01:49 PM

It was very good thread and was going fine until someone got in a huff. But sadly the good times ended under threat of banishment....

I still stand by everything I said in that thread.

Curbside Prophet · 07-14-2009, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4IC

Those of us who use the term and apply it to our training methods defined what WE mean by the term, which let to defining some of the terms around the concept of dog training that we use. A very logical progression of the subject as related to the original post, IMO.

Agreed, and that topic was allowed to continue.

Quote:

You then told a few members that what they were saying wasn't worthy of discussion and not the topic of discussion, and out of place in the discussion, though it was not at all clear that this was the case or why. And then, you became sarcastic and threatening.

What I told a few members is that the discussion of someone’s qualifications to define the term was not worth discussing, as it could be misconstrued as a personal attack. Please do not quote me out of context as that would not add clarity.

Quote:

Your final warning came with:

"Any discussion relating to how trainers define/qualify their labels (this part of your post was added after my post below) needs to move into a new thread. Any posts after this one will be deleted and repeat offenders will be banned."

I don't know how we can discuss training without defining the terms. What's wrong with defining the terms we're using? How is that off topic? Especially when you were the first one to start defining the term "balanced" for those of us who were using it?

There’s nothing wrong with defining a term before using it, but there was clearly two discussions going on, and when a select few members are becoming contentious towards others, it is prudent to segregate that topic from the original discussion. The topic was never disallowed. An avenue was proposed by me for the discussion to continue elsewhere.

How you define your approach in teaching attention is not the same discussion as what defines someone to answer. Even without the contention this topic is worthy of exploration, but not on the personal level it was tending towards. Regardless of whether you missed it or not, if a mod presents a reasonable alternate avenue for a discussion, the interpretation of such should be left to the mod in favor of the alternate avenue.

Quote:

This is why I'm confused. I posted in the thread saying how confused I was and my post was summarily deleted.

This was understood and I attempted to add clarity. If I did not, I apologize. Your post would serve no purpose if clarified, and thus deleted.

Quote:

…it was ruined because people wanted to define the terms we were using and you determined that to be off topic, even though you were the first to do so.

I respectfully disagree. The thread was not ruined by people wanting to define the terms being used. The thread was ruined by members insisting other’s were not qualified to define the terms being used. At this point it was no longer a discussion of the terms as it was a discussion of the quality of a person. I acted to prevent this from cultivating into much more – that is a mod’s duty.

Of course I don't think I'm being unreasonable by any means, but I like the idea of another mod serving as my enforcer.

wvasko · 07-14-2009, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FourIsCompany

In this thread (Competition Obedience and Posit. Reinf. training Discussion), several people said they used a "balanced" approach to dog training. You then defined the term "Balanced" as:

""Balanced", in a training sense, means using punishment equally with reinforcement."

Those of us who use the term and apply it to our training methods defined what WE mean by the term, which led to defining some of the terms around the concept of dog training that we use. A very logical progression of the subject as related to the original post, IMO.

You then told a few members that what they were saying wasn't worthy of discussion and not the topic of discussion, and out of place in the discussion, though it was not at all clear that this was the case or why. And then, you became sarcastic and threatening.

Your final warning came with:

"Any discussion relating to how trainers define/qualify their labels (this part of your post was added after my post below) needs to move into a new thread. Any posts after this one will be deleted and repeat offenders will be banned."

I don't know how we can discuss training without defining the terms. What's wrong with defining the terms we're using? How is that off topic? Especially when you were the first one to start defining the term "balanced" for those of us who were using it?

This is why I'm confused. I posted in the thread saying how confused I was and my post was summarily deleted.

My post:

"I have no idea what is being referred to as off topic, and I have no way of knowing what is subjectively being judged as "off topic" in this particular thread, as it seems like a smooth, flowing, civil discussion about the different methods and levels of the efficacy of positive reinforcement dog training to me.

So I will not continue to walk on eggshells under the threat of being banned. I don't even know if CP is talking to me or another poster. I have no way of knowing.

I would like to thank you, Elana and others for the great discussion and information I've received, even if it did veer slightly off topic a time or two. That's how discussions go. And if I get banned for this off topic post, then I had a good time here and wish you all well."

That was one of the most educational (for me) threads I've been involved in since joining this board and it was ruined because people wanted to define the terms we were using and you determined that to be off topic, even though you were the first to do so.

I don't know whether or not anyone was banned or "got dirty marks" for their participation in that thread, but the threat was there, and I do know that I felt stifled and confused as to what we were "allowed" to discuss and to whom your warnings were addressed.

Good post
when all this was going on I got on the training thread that I guess LoupGarou started and mentioned that last year I had received a "best training advice" award, (my sig.) deserved or not I got it. I mentioned that I was backing off of advice and opinions in general because of "the wake up call" I had received on elana's thread.

I went back and reread my replies and did not see anything I said that was disrespectful to anybody. But I have a habit of blaming my command of the printed word for problems imagined or not. I have always confessed to the not brightest bulb in box problem.

The funny part was when 30 minutes later I went to check the training thread that we were(and I definitely did) advised to go to to discuss training that was causing all the discord on elana's thread. Found out that it was not only closed it was deleted and gone with my reply. I'm sorry but to me that's very confusing. I have decided to become more of a sideline sitter myself. I enjoy the people here and sidelining is not against any forum rules so all should be good in the world. If I do think that I can help somebody I will use the PM program. Everybody play nice and have fun.

Curbside Prophet · 07-14-2009, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wvasko

The funny part was when 30 minutes later I went to check the training thread that we were(and I definitely did) advised to go to to discuss training that was causing all the discord on elana's thread. Found out that it was not only closed it was deleted and gone with my reply. I'm sorry but to me that's very confusing.

This mod is confused too as zero of your posts were deleted from the thread in question. And please note the thread was closed per Elena's request, not by the decision of a mod.

Elana55 · 07-14-2009, 03:11 PM

*sigh*
I think this thread has served its purpose. I asked for something to be considered and apparently that is happening. I know it did not have to be. Thank you for at least taking the idea seriously, whether or not you adopt it and whether or not you have the personnel to actually do it. I thank the Mods and Admin for at least discussing it.

Thank you to everyone who had so many nice things to say about my posts as a member of the Dog Forums. I am humbled and am not sure I am so deserving of your compliments. I am not moderator material and my connection at home is certainly not Moderator material.

To those who brought up my "Obedience" thread, I want you to know I asked it be closed for fear of folks getting banned. I had no idea if it would be closed and I was not sure what was going on. In the morning of that day I unsubscribed to it as it seemed to be going in a place that was not good.

By evening when I returned the rest had happened.. no idea what a lot of that was.. but the threat of banning was there. No point in feeding that wolf, so I asked the thread be closed (there are two wolves in us.. and they are fighting a terrible battle.. a battle to the death.. one wolf is evil and the other wolf is good.. the wolf that wins is the one you feed). It was. Within seconds of my request.

It is time to make the same request of this thread. Please close it. I unsubscribed to it earlier.

Thank you all, especially Mods and Admins for giving the idea presented here some thought.

PS: Curbside Prophet.. my screen name is Elana...

Curbside Prophet · 07-14-2009, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elana55

PS: Curbside Prophet.. my screen name is Elana...

Thank you and sorry.

RonE · 07-14-2009, 03:26 PM

It is fortunate that I know little about formal (and informal) training methods and, so, seldom express opinions about them. I would be happy to keep an eye on Curb and he can keep an eye on me and Carla can keep an eye on both of us.

I am NOT making light of Elana's concerns or Wvasko's and I've made it clear to both of them how much I value their opinions.

cshellenberger · 07-20-2009, 02:56 AM

The thing about a thread where someone has been banned is what you DON'T see unless you're a moderator. The deleted posts or threads of the person(s) who has been banned. There are times when the moderator has had to lock a thread only to receive a nasty and insulting PM or the OP of that thread posts a new topic that is nasty about the first thread being locked. The moderator has to take action and may not be able to wait around for another moderator to come along and referee.

There are many things that the forum members DON'T see or hear that happen when a member is banned and that play a huge part in the banning. Banning an established member is ALWAYS taken seriously by the mods and is usually discussed in private before it happens. I've VERY seldom seen an established member banned instantly, usually when they've been banned it's after a long discussion and several warnings about their behavior. I usually have screen shots taken to record things that happen via PM and even email.

As far as questioning board rules or wishing for clarification, it will never get a member in trouble as long as it's done without personal insults or name calling.

cshellenberger · 07-31-2009, 01:03 PM

Nancy,
We are actually using your suggestion WHEN POSSIBLE.

If any member has a question about the rules, or a recent banning, please contact a moderator VIA PM. I know there are some things floating around right now from banned members. We will answer questions as fully as we can while still protecting the privacy of the person(s) in question. Don't believe everything you may hear in an email from those who are no longer allowed on the site. There is always good reason for actions taken.

Elana55 · 07-31-2009, 02:46 PM

Thanks Carla.

No need to share the laundry b4 it is washed.