The Need to Know About Fish Oil:

deege39

Hmm... Thanks for sharing your experience L&L'sMom, I will certainly keep that in mind.

The reason why I'm asking about this is because Donatello has an allergy to corn, although he hasn't had a break out in months, he still tends to get flaky, his coat isn't as soft and luscious as I'd like it to be. Whenever he's bathed and conditioned, for a few weeks his coat is slick, smooth, and soft... Then it wears off... So I'm hoping that adding Fish Oil will help with the stray flakes, the slightly dull sheen, and just overall help his skin.

Thanks Hallie, it sounds like Hallie is somewhat like Donatello in this area. His allergy to corn is pretty bad. It takes a fairly large amount of corn to do any damage, but at the same time, small amounts over a period of time are just as potent. His bald spots are all filled in and I'd like to keep them that way, that's why I'm concerned about switching foods. I'd love to, but I'm also concerned that he's got an allergy to something else I don't know about...

It took me almost two months of research, testing, trial and error for me to recognize and remove corn from his diet. Those months, and the months following were brutal! Everyday, several times I day I'd give him a good brushing, checking for pink spots, checking for flakes, checking old bald spots, finding a new one and wondering if it's "new" or one I didn't find previously...

They do say, that sometimes, if a dog has an allergy to one thing, it usually has an allergy to something else as well... Whether that's true or not, I'm nervous to find out! I was fortunate the allergy just affected his skin and coat, and didn't affect him "medically" or "internally" as some do.

Thanks again for the advice, I might try it...

Oh, and does anyone know how much/how long before I start noticing a difference in his appearance?

Bikhi Akhbar

my mother puts a teaspoon of olive oil on her cats canned food. it has really made a difference in her fur.

i use a couple of squirts of salmon oil on little Bikhi's food at night and even her white fur shines. i got it at pet supplies plus. it's 'grizzly salmon' brand.

canteloupe

Sorry it took me a while to respond. I haven't been on DF since you posted this, so I just now saw it.

I haven't found anything specifically about fish oil and the extruding process either, unfortunately. What I was basing my post on is my knowledge that fish oil is extremely hard to maintain because it is so sensitive to oxidation.

Here's info on extrusion, from bornfreeusa.org. Btw, this is a great article that has a lot of other info on pet foods, so I recommend reading the whole thing.

Knowing that fish oil can't be exposed to oxygen because that makes it go rancid, I think we can conclude that fish oil could not possibly survive the above process. Even if it could survive the mixing, the extremely high temperatures, the steam, etc. it would surely be exposed to oxygen along the way. (And doesn't steam include oxygen?)

Here are some links about fish oil and oxygen.

- This one's from a doctor's blog. He goes so far as to recommend storing the capsules in a glass container instead of plastic, because glass is impervious to air and plastic is not.

- Here's a link about how to judge the quality of a fish oil brand. It includes a section on oxidation.

- Here's another similar article. It includes a section that says, "The lower the total level of oxidation, the better is the freshness of the oils. Oxidized oils contain free radicals. They cause fishy tasting burps and at high levels, they can cause illness."

I don't have any links saved, so these were just what I found in a quick search.

You'll see that the CRN (Council for Responsible Nutrition) tests fish oil products for a number of things, including PCB's, dioxins, furans, mercury, and OXIDATION. Simply being exposed to oxygen causes oxidation.

Labsnothers

I also have about 10 years experience extruding rubber and plastic. It is quite easy to exclude oxygen from an extruder. Also the steam is in the outer jacket of the extruder, not where the material is. Yes, steam contains oxygen. After all it is only water in another state. Yes, water, well known for stopping the rapid oxidation known as fire. You have demonstrated a total lack of knowledge of extrusion and chemistry. I am a professional chemist. You are going to argue with me about chemistry?

nico8

Don't act like you haven't ridiculed the AAFCO testing already on these forums, admitting how grossly lax they are. At this point you're a hypocrite at best...

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canteloupe

Being a chemist, if you actually are one, isn't like being a doctor. It doesn't give you some level of authority over the entire field. Most working chemists only know about one specific subfield. And you can call yourself a chemist fresh out of college with just a BA.

I really think it's proposterous that you are claiming authority here, and that you actually expect people to believe that no oxygen ever comes into contact with the fish oil at any part of the manufacturing process.

So you're stance is that the food goes through all this:

"It is subjected to steam and high pressure as it is pushed through dies that determine the shape of the final product, much like the nozzles used in cake decorating. As the hot, pressurized dough exits the extruder, it is cut by a set of rapidly whirling knives into tiny pieces. As the dough reaches normal air pressure, it expands or “puffs” into its final shape. The food is allowed to dry, and then is usually sprayed with fat, digests, or other compounds to make it more palatable. When it is cooled, it can be bagged."

In a oxygen-free vacuum? To create a vacuum with absolutely no oxygen for this entire process (being mixed, subjected to steam and high pressure, pushed through dies, cut by whirling knives, dried, and sprayed with fat) would be ridiculously expensive and from a pragmatic viewpoint, impossible.

Nice try. Next you'll claim that dogs are herbivores. Or have you claimed that already?

Labsnothers

You are right, most chemists do have experience in limited areas. So here I am arguing with completely untrained people in areas I have extensive experience in. Ones that seem to have no understanding of how science or business works. In addition to my years in the lab, I have also managed a factory.

Oh the larger companies don't rely on the limited AAFCO tests. They have chromatographs in their QC lab to verify each batch comes out right.

canteloupe

Is that an admission that you do, in fact, work in the dog food manufacturing business? At, say, Menu Foods?

nico8

Comes out "right" by who's standards? Oh that's right...AAFCO standards.

lulusmom

Labsnothers, I have read a fraction of the posts on this forum; however, I have perused enough of yours to determine that on more than one occasion you have ruffled a lot of feathers. You have failed to demonstrate clear and concise responses to direct questions nor have you provided links to any type of references/data, whether scientific, anecdotal or otherwise to support your claims/statements. If you are going to invoke the wrath of others, make sure you choose your battles wisely and for heaven's sake, arm yourself. I'd like nothing better than to see you reign victorious and prove everybody wrong by means other than asking them to take your word for it. When you finally do that, then maybe those of us that come here to reap the benefits of other members' experience and knowledge will give credence to what you have to say.

I swore to myself that I would ignore you in the future so I am actually ashamed of myself for addressing you again; however, you raised my hackles with your unmerited and unprovoked attack on a member who was responding to my request. Cantelope was not addressing you nor did s/he malign you so I feel responsible for indirectly making him/her a target. Unlike you, Cantelope actually responded to my request with appropriate links to information on the subject at hand. I sincerely appreciated his/her response and it was interesting reading....but then I doubt you took the time to check it out because after all, "you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet." For those of us that thank God for the internet and use it extensively for educational purposes, that statement is beyond absurd and is a poor substitute for links to abstracts, published studies/papers or anything else that might support your theories.

Without the benefit of meeting members in person, we form our own internal profiles of others based on the credibility of their writings and the tone they set, which gives us some idea as to the passion and compassion in their heart. My internal profile of Labsnothers indicates that s/he is narcissistic, very defensive, and has repeatedly sabotaged his/her own credibility. I try to remain objective and fair; however, I am always in a total quandry when weighing the validity of your contributions.

Unless you were or are employed within the pet food industry and understand the processes and its effect on the end product, those of us, with an IQ greater than 18, that have read some of your other controversial posts are not going to take your word for it just because you have a chemistry background in an industry that is far removed from pet food. Should I actually take your word for it that you did your own undocumented scientific experiment that proved that boiling fish oil all day had no effect on the nutritive value of that fish oil? Should I not be influenced by the total lack of evidence or the pomposity of your posts that suggests that your comments are above reproach? Should I believe that you are or were a chemist and extend you a greater measure of respect that usually comes with such an impressive title? I dunno but I will say that I am not feeling like I should bow down to you nor am I the least bit inclined to tell you that "I'm not worthy". Honestly, no matter how hard I try, I cannot get the notion out of my head that a more likely scenario is that you are or were a paint mixer at Home Depot, or maybe even Earl Sheib, with a serious penchant for embellishment that falls way short of making up for your lack of cunning.

Leroy&Lucy'sMom

Usually you should see a difference/improvement in about 4-6 weeks.

deege39

Thanks L&L'sMom!

I'd like this thread to be closed now. Thanks Moderators.

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