Is this an emergency? Please check quick.

4dogs3cats

Can the full blown.. ahem... happen to a neutered dog?

The dog that I saw it happen to was in doggy daycare and only neutered dogs were allowed in daycare...

I have always wondered about the speutering early vs late too. I had heard that for larger dogs it was best to wait a while. I got Chance neuetered at 9-10 months. I didn't have any real reason to do it sooner because he doesnt spend time around intact females.

But shelters neuter at like.. 8 weeks! Every dog you get from the humane society is neueterd and they get really young dogs sometimes.

I know its to prevent more breeding and I get that, but is the shelter doing a disservice to owners and putting their dogs at risk?

Ender

Apparently it can, Bartleby is neutered.

4dogs3cats

Innnnteresting.

I guess the dog would have to get VERY excited lol

RBark

Risk is relative. Are the dogs at bigger risk being speutered at that age? Possibly. But it's a risk they have to take. The risks to a dog's health, being placed in a unknowledgable home without being speutered are far higher.

I woiuldn't call that a disservice. I'd call it a fact of life.

trumpetjock

Agreed.

I won't neuter any puppy that I get from a breeder before full physical maturity, but I damn well expect any dog I get from the shelter 6 months or older to be neutered. I wouldn't be remiss about 2-6 months being neutered either.

MyDogJinx

Pretty funny subject here! Anyways I work at a doggie day care and the dogs are grouped together in numbers of about 10-20 dogs at a time. And let me tell you that dogs are some obscene creatures!! We have some neutered males that just go crazy humping any of the other dogs, male and female. Unfortunately I have seen a few too many red rockets and some all the way red rockets before we could get them distracted with something else. It makes for an interesting day.

4dogs3cats

Yeah it all makes sense. I was just more thinking about the HUGE risk of HD that you guys were mentioning. My shelter adopts out TONS of puppies.

I know it is impossible to let them all mature before they adopt them, of course. And it is also impossible to expect every new owner to take the dog and get speutered. I even know of people who adopted from shelters that didnt take the dog for its first FREE ON THE HOUSE FROM THE SHELTER vet visit because they just *forgot* to schedule it.

I was more just noting on the irony in us putting dogs at 160% chance of HD to be able to prevent more dogs from being bred.

But I have known many shelter dogs in the past that have been speutered early and have never had any problems, so just because the chance is there doesnt mean its GOING to happen.

But TJ I agree with you, if its your dog you get from a breeder, than why not wait. makes sense.

GroovyGroomer777

All I can say is I'm glad you did not post a picture of Rocky's problem....

trumpetjock

I tried to snap one. It was the most horrid thing I've ever seen. Only one of the glands was out, and it was covered in felt lint from the blanket he was humping. I'm scarred for life.

Elana55

I would like to read it and I have to take my cat to the vet today (a one way trip for her I think, which REALLY sux) so I will ask my vet too.

I can say that my last dog had her hips xrayed after spaying (not for OFA but because she had an accident with a cow while herding) and those XRays would have passed OFA Good or Excellant and of that I have NO doubt... she was a German bred dog. She was 3 years old when xrayed.

My current dog has one of the soundest set of hips I have seen in a GSD that is American bred in a LONG time. She was spayed at 6 months (well, 6.5 months.. but who is counting).

This is two dogs.. and two dogs is anecdotal, not a study. I just would love to read it and wonder how HD was isolated with respect to spaying and not to other genetic factors. I would also like to know if research was done on HD in the parents and a lot of other questins come to mind. Isolating HD and relating it to spaying/neutering would be more than a little difficult.. especially as prevalent as HD is in all dogs (mised and otherwise) with Husky breeds being the least prone to this condition.

I will be asking my vet today I will report back on what he says. He is very UTD on canine orthopedics. He may even HAVE the study.

I never heard this. Not saying it isn't true, just never heard it.

My dog's mother died of Breast Cancer when my dog was just 3 weeks old. This disease (or so I was told) can be 100% avoided by spaying prior to first heat and so my dog was.

The ONLY thing that I can think of that is specifically delayed by neutering (not spaying) early is that the growth plates take longer to close. If diet and exercise are considered in the face of this, it would seem a non issue. Now this is something that CAN be an issue in a heavy species(like a horse) but even then, since studs can be a pain to deal with, gelding is often done prior to the horse being 2 years old.. and growth plates do not close in horses until 4 -5 years old anyway. The delay is about 6 months if gelded prior to that.

Not that it matters now or for my current dog.. I will ask my vet on this today as long as I am there. Just a discussion. I won't be getting another dog until after this one has passed and Atka is only 2 so I hope that is a ways off.

trumpetjock

It was posted on these boards by Shalva a while back. I'm having a bit of trouble digging it back up, but I'm sure I'll find it.

edit -- Oh... shalva doesn't exist on these boards, so the post is probably gone too. I'll see if I can dig it up elsewhere.

Spitzy

I remember Shalva's threads too, because I found them very informative and interesting.

I think I was able to dig most of them up with the search function:
One (More spay neuter information.....)
Two (interesting spay/neuter article.....)
Three (more spay neuter information)

trumpetjock

The third one you posted was the one I had in mind. Thanks for digging those up, they are all really good reads.

Elana55

I mentioned this to my vet and he said for a VALID study that large he would know about it. It is NOT A STUDY... it is a statistical report. VASTLY DIFFERENT.

With regard to #3 Again, if you read it, it is a statistical report. This means that HD is not isolated with early castration/spaying as the causitive agent. It is interesting but not conclusive and there is a difference. This is what I suspected and I was correct.

#2 is a compilation of studies and remarks on them. Results of the study are qualitative and there is no measure other than Increased or Decreased.

#1 is one of the studies discussed in #2 and is qualitative in conclusion.

Interesting reads, not conclusive by any stretch and not paid for, double blind, repeatable studies.

IOW's the HD in the speutered dogs could also have increased incidence because owners did not recognize that speutered dogs often have reduced metabolic rates and so did not reduce caloric intake and the dogs got fat.. and since HD is so prevalent, the clinical incidence was increased. Or the dogs reported were dogs that were cared for an noticed.. while many other dogs were not diagnosed, not reported and were PTS. Statistical studies are interesting but not diagnostic.

There is not enough information to draw a conclusion from these AVMA articles. They are interesting articles.. but if you are worried about HD in your dog go to the vet when your dog is 18 months old and have the hips Xrayed.

Even then, while the Xrays may show HD, you may never notice clincal signs in your dog.

The only thing I could see being a problem was possible incontinance in feamle dogs when spayed under 6 months of age.

Nothing I have read here would have me wait to spay a female dog until after her first heat or wait until after a year old to neuter a male dog.

trumpetjock

Yeah, I misspoke when I called it a study. What it is, is just mass data mining. I've definitely thought about all the other variables that go into the increased rate in spuetered dogs too. While it's inconclusive, it's still enough to get me thinking.

It's like this, for me: If the study is bogus and I waited an extra year, it just tried my patience, and I had to do a little extra work having an unaltered dog. If the study actually holds some water, I did everything I could to try and prevent a crippling illness.

Having him x-rayd for HD at 18 months is a good idea though. I'll probably end up doing that. It seems like the best of both worlds.

Elana55

Thanks for the discussion Trumpet... I do enjoy this sort of thing.

It is not that the study is bogus, and it is a statistical study, it is that it is not clinical and therefore making a clinical decision based on it is not good medicine. The conclusion of the study is excellant.. it is simply a generalized discussion.

To be honest, if you are not going to breed your dog and his hips seem tight upon gross examination, I wouldn't bother worrying about HD in your dog. I believe NWEH's are one of the breeds that have a reduced incidence anyway.

If your dog does develop HD with clinical signs, you will know it and can adress it at that time. No need to spend $$ on Xrays. The dog will let you know and the only prevention is to keep the dog from getting FAT.

Excess weight can shave a lot of years off any dog and if the hip joints are marginal, can push the dog over into HD symptoms.

My vet estimates in the GSD breed the dog can lose 6 months to a year of life for every 5 pounds the dog is overweight. I keep Atka slightly underweight.. just barely under ideal body score. Did this with my last dog too.. and she went just 2 months shy of 14 years and weighed in at 95 pounds.

trumpetjock

Bogus is a loose term. Mostly I meant that if there isn't a connection, I'm still not hurting anything by waiting.

NEHs are definitely low on the scale for HD, but I've seen what it does to dogs. It's not something I want to go through any time soon, and anything that I can do to help prevent it is good. Rocky did not come from a reputable breeder. I've seen the OFA's on the few Ch dogs that are in his pedigree, but the BYB dogs are a total mystery. I'm waiting to neuter him for the same reason I feed raw - there is enough information out there that points to better overall health. There isn't anything conclusive, but it's enough to make me go the extra mile.

I also keep him underweight by a few pounds. The judge I use is that when he does his morning stretch routine, I want to be able to see 3-5 ribs.

Maybe I'm just being paranoid, I don't know.

Elana55

HD is miserable but there are surgeries to deal with it.

I think you are doing what you can to avoid it. That is about all you can do. Late neutering? Personally I would not bother, but this is not my dog.

You can evaluate him yourself to a degree. Does he "bunny hop" with both hind feet together when he runs? If not, he is probably fine. If he does, wait and see.. that is what you have to do anyway. No vet I know would attempt to pre-empt the issue by doing surgery on a dog showing no discomfort.

You are feeding him well and you are making sure he stays proper weight or under (if Atka is wet, you can clearly see her ribs.. she is fuzzy so you can't.. and I keep her about 68 pounds). Worrying beyond these actions serves no purpose.

You are not using the dog for breeding and he is not currently lame. Enjoy him.

trumpetjock

Well said.

Unfortunately, he does bunny hop his back legs a bit. They're still staggered slightly, but it's not the gait I'd like to see. It's part of the reason I'm waiting on it all.

Yeah, there are surgeries, but you know the old saying: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure". They are expensive surgeries.

My next dog will most likely be an extremely well bred female with OFA'd parents. She'll be spayed after her first heat, since the risk factors are much lower.

I'm all for enjoying my non breeding dog, but I want to enjoy him for as long and as healthy as possible!