Stumped the vet - any ideas?

Annamarie · 08-02-2008, 02:29 PM

we've never seen any ticks on him but he's frequently in areas where they live so it's quite possible he picked one up at some point. we (and every person whose backyard he's been in lately) have big fir trees and long grass etc in the backyard and we frequently take him hiking with us or for short walks on a wooded trail.

I don't think it's an injury since we checked him and touched him all over and we couldn't figure out where the pain was coming from. The limping is on and off but the body soreness is pretty much 24/7. It also wouldn't explain the fever.

He's been unable to eat anything today or yesterday and has started vomiting, so I'm starting to worry because he's getting worse. The vet said to keep him off food and take him off the pills because he probably has developed some gastroitis or something like that due to his illness or stress. He's drinking a lot of water but if he stops drinking we'll have to take him in right away to have him hooked up to an IV. He's started crying while he sits there shaking so he's feeling worse. In the meantime all we can do is wait until tuesday for the bloodwork

gingersmom · 08-03-2008, 10:22 AM

Oh Annemarie, that sounds horrible! I can't believe you have to wait that long for the bloodwork. I hope the vet can work a miracle!

Sablemerle · 08-05-2008, 10:41 PM

Bumping for update:

Annamarie,

Have you gotten the tick panel back yet?

I found your story on a Google Search because we have our own "stump the vet" problem with my Border Terrier. Your MinPin seems to fit the TBD profile more than our BT does (fever, foreleg lameness, inappetance -- our girl only has the foreleg lameness).

Your little guy is so cute-- I hope he's feeling better today.

Annamarie · 08-05-2008, 11:07 PM

the tick panel hasn't come back yet but his blood results came in this afternoon. he has an elevated white blood cell count, elevated liver enzymes, and some muscle enzyme that is elevated too. in the last two days he's also started drinking tons of water and peeing frequently so I'm thinking his kidneys are involved now. to me, this says that his organs are shutting down.

i'm taking him in to the vet tomorrow morning to do a urinalysis because the vet is still stumped. he says the lyme disease titer can take a while to come back so he wants to test him for some rare fungus (cryptococcis) which I HIGHLY doubt. I looked it up and he doesn't fit the symptoms at all. I'm going to request that we start him on the type of antibiotics that attacks lyme disease because at the very least it can't hurt and lyme can cause permanent damage if that's what it is. I'm kicking myself for not requesting this on thursday, I should have been pushy.

Sablemerle · 08-05-2008, 11:39 PM

I'm so sorry he isn't better. Please don't kick yourself, Annemarie, you've been very proactive. I live in New England, and lyme disease has been endemic here for over a decade. I wasn't aware that it had moved into Canada, let alone Western Canada.

Hopefully, your vet can both test him for fungal infection *and* put him on a course of doxycyline. If it is Lyme, he will need to be on antibiotics for at least a month. Like you said, I don't see how it could hurt, though you'll want to add some acidopholus to his diet (supplements are OK, if he'll eat natural yogurt, it's even better) if he'll be on long-term antibiotics.

Keeping you and your little guy in my thoughts,
Sablemerle

Annamarie · 08-06-2008, 12:44 AM

lyme disease isn't extremely common here but it is here, there have been 60 human cases but there are no stats for dogs that I could find.

To me some form of tick borne illness is the only thing that matches his symptoms. The only other possibility I could find is a bacterial infection called leptospirosis that causes fever, muscle aches, loss of appetite, and increased thirst/urination. This can be tested for with his urinalysis tomorrow.

But all the tick diseases and this leptospirosis are treated with the same antibiotics (tetracycline.... though I've seen some sites that say to use doxycycline). So I'll be pushing for that tomorrow. Poor guy

Shalva · 08-06-2008, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Annamarie

lyme disease isn't extremely common here but it is here, there have been 60 human cases but there are no stats for dogs that I could find.

To me some form of tick borne illness is the only thing that matches his symptoms. The only other possibility I could find is a bacterial infection called leptospirosis that causes fever, muscle aches, loss of appetite, and increased thirst/urination. This can be tested for with his urinalysis tomorrow.

But all the tick diseases and this leptospirosis are treated with the same antibiotics (tetracycline.... though I've seen some sites that say to use doxycycline). So I'll be pushing for that tomorrow. Poor guy

lets hope he doesn't have lepto......
fungus might be it.....

tick born disease is the easiest to deal with .
s

gingersmom · 08-06-2008, 09:00 AM

I just wanted to say that I'm rooting for you and your min pin as well.

Elana55 · 08-06-2008, 09:12 AM

There is a new strain of Lepto around that I had Atka Vaccinated for this past spring at her annual. she is also vaccinated for Lyme because it is sooo prevalent here.

Fact is, most dog people here have a running supply of Tetracycline for Lyme and the minute the dog appears to have it, they start the treatment in consultation with the vet. Also, while the tick panel is still run, most start the dog on the proper antibiotic before the results are back because it tick illness can make a dog so darn sick.

Lepto can be picked up from Raccoons and Deer. I used to vaccinate the cattle for it 3 times a year for the same strains that affect dogs. It was a disease that could coause early embryonic death.. so your cow is checked pregnant and then comes in heat at 90-120 days (9 month gestation). This is VERY expensive as the cow is then rebred and the whole thing can leangthen her dry period which can be bad for your bottom line AND the health of the cow (they can get too fat when dry for a long time, so when they freshen with their next calf they get Ketosis).

spotted nikes · 08-06-2008, 09:45 AM

I've been reading your updates regularly. I'm hoping your little guy gets better soon. It's awful to see one of your loved ones sick.

Annamarie · 08-06-2008, 02:07 PM

I've also read that it's adviseable to start antibiotic treatment the minute that lyme is even suspected, but when I talked to the two vets today (they actually had a meeting about what the heck to do with him) they said that they don't want to start him on anything because it's hard on the liver and in their opinion they don't see enough indication to justify it's use. I disagree that there's not enough indication to justify it, but I do see their point if it's hard on the liver.

I asked about the lepto and they said it would have responded to the cephalexin antibiotics. I'm pretty sure everything I've read has said to use tetracycline antibiotics though. The cephalexin is more for skin related infections not internal ones.

He actually ate and kept down two treats at the vet's office and he ate a spoonful of the recovery food they gave us to try.

So, still waiting, probably a few more days

JackiesZoo · 08-06-2008, 02:58 PM

OMG! I am so sorry. Maybe you can get a second opinion? All these days and he just seems to be getting worse.

I have you all in my thoughts.

Annamarie · 08-06-2008, 06:07 PM

I phoned a different vet that has come highly recommended in the area for solving "mysteries". I was just going to pay for a phone consult but she's so overbooked the soonest she can do it is tomorrow afternoon so she said to bring him in and we'll just do it in person. There's no point in repeating tests that have been done but I just need a second opinion (or third as it may be). I'm just so worried that every day that goes by may be causing him permanent damage, not to mention I can't stand seeing him in pain. He was also weighed at the vet today and has gone from 15.6 pounds to 13.8 pounds. He's starting to look really skinny and has lost most of his fat and muscle mass. Considering he's a pretty slim guy to begin with, he doesn't have a lot to spare.

I wrote down all the information for tomorrow for the vet so i don't forget. The exact dates when symptoms showed up and when he saw vets and started meds etc.

melgrj7 · 08-06-2008, 10:45 PM

It sounds like a tick bourne disease to me, symptom wise. I can't believe your vet hasn't started him on doxycycline. The symptoms sound alot like how Allie was when we brought her home. She had anaplasmosis. Vets often undertreat for this, prescribe lower doses and a shorter time than what actually seems to work, and then you end up having to retreat again several months down the line. Your vet doesn't have the snap test? Its done in office and takes about 15 minutes, it test for 4 different tick bourne diseases. Even if it didn't test positive and they couldn't figure anything else out I'm surprised they didn't start doxy to see if it worked. Allie felt noticably better within days and way better in a week.

Annamarie · 08-06-2008, 11:12 PM

ya I'm going to raise hell if it turns out to be tick borne and they didn't start him on treatment right away.

We just got home from the beach and came in the door to two huge pee puddles in the hallway. One had drips from his bed to about 2 feet away where the puddle was, like he had no warning and just went. This is not like him at all. We left him at home and intentionally kept our trip short and the fact that he couldn't hold 2 even that long really worries me.

Elana55 · 08-07-2008, 07:14 AM

Well, I am going to PM you.. but I will say this. In an area where tick born illness is prevalent, the vets hit the dog right away with antibiotics for Lyme etc. IF the dog continues to be ill, they can change the antibiotic.

I agree to tests, but a dog that is losing weight (and fat is metabolized thru the liver) is damaging his liver already (and the liver recovers pretty readily). Not sure if the fat will deposit on the liver like it does in Cattle and Cats (and kills them that way).

The other organs being stressed, especially if the dog gets dehydrated, are the KIDNEYS and they do NOT recover easily.. and are usually pretty damaged by the time outward symptoms show.

Annamarie · 08-07-2008, 10:17 AM

that's similar to what I was thinking when they told me the drugs can be hard on the liver. I'm no vet but in my mind, any damage to the liver would probably be less than the damage to multiple body systems with lyme or something similar.

I was up all night last night picking him up to take him out to pee every 2 hours. It's 8:30am now, we see the vet at 2:20pm. I'll update as soon as I see her.

Shalva · 08-07-2008, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Annamarie

that's similar to what I was thinking when they told me the drugs can be hard on the liver. I'm no vet but in my mind, any damage to the liver would probably be less than the damage to multiple body systems with lyme or something similar.

I was up all night last night picking him up to take him out to pee every 2 hours. It's 8:30am now, we see the vet at 2:20pm. I'll update as soon as I see her.

that is not really true,
doxycycline can be VERY VERY hard on teh liver and in the case of a friend of mines dog, it nearly killed the dog ..... and its 6 weeks on the doxy.... there are other drugs that are not as harmful as the doxy.... and while they are effective they are not as effective as the doxy.... spiroettes are very difficult to kill....

if the liver is always compromised I would be concerned.
s

Annamarie · 08-07-2008, 11:08 AM

ick....

So I just confirmed that the original vet I saw sent in a test for lyme only instead of the "full tick panel" that I requested. So not only are we waiting a week for test results but we won't get an answer on the other tick borne illnesses....

I just called the vet I'm seeing today to ask if they carry that SNAP 4DX test (OMG I didn't realize until mel mentioned it that this test exists!! 15 minutes done in house as opposed to over a week for only lyme???). They don't carry it but can possibly order it and it will be here by saturday, I have to talk to the vet about it later. I don't know why none of the vets here don't use that test, according to the company's website it is distributed within canada.

To me it just seems pretty simple. 15 minute 4 way test or 1 week individual titer test.....

Shalva · 08-07-2008, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Annamarie

ick....

So I just confirmed that the original vet I saw sent in a test for lyme only instead of the "full tick panel" that I requested. So not only are we waiting a week for test results but we won't get an answer on the other tick borne illnesses....

I just called the vet I'm seeing today to ask if they carry that SNAP 4DX test (OMG I didn't realize until mel mentioned it that this test exists!! 15 minutes done in house as opposed to over a week for only lyme???). They don't carry it but can possibly order it and it will be here by saturday, I have to talk to the vet about it later. I don't know why none of the vets here don't use that test, according to the company's website it is distributed within canada.

To me it just seems pretty simple. 15 minute 4 way test or 1 week individual titer test.....

the snap test is not as accurate...... and it only tests for lyme and not the other tick borne illnesses.
that is why I suggested the full panel.
s