titers in lieu of vaccines questions

lizbethc38

Hi,
I have a 4 yr old, small (37 lb) Shepherd/Lab mix. I would like to have titers run as opposed to vaccinating. Which should I ask for?
Muggsy Phydeaux does play with a few other dogs & spends some time outdoors. We've moved to N FL & it seems that ticks will be a new problem for us, which is kind of freaking me out. I don't use pesticides on my dog,(although I do use Heartgard, wish I didn't have to, but....) I use an herbal shampoo & spray from ONP & flea comb him at least once if not more times a day. I also 'feel him up' as it were when he sits next to me, to check for bumps & lumps. I just bought Castor & Pollux' herbal collar, but haven't tried it out yet.
So I would really appreciate a list of the titers I should ask to have run & if possible, ballpark figures of how much they cost, just so I have an idea.
Also, how often should they be run? Yearly like the heartworm test? If ticks are a problem, should he be tested for Lyme more often? Please advise me folks. Muggsy is my first furry baby & I want to do right by him!
Thanks!
Elizabeth

'My goal in life is to be as good a person as my dog thinks I am'

Orange County Ca

My understanding of titters comes from the web site below:

As I get it you're dog will be able to catch a disease. You hope to discover it with a blood test. Then you'll treat that specific disease.

During the time between your titters tests you dog could catch a disease and pass it on to other dogs.

Meanwhile the disease progresses in your dog, perhaps unnoticed, for 6 months.

Does Parvovirus come to mind? A lethal virus that can be vaccinated for but not treated? Rabies?

I know there are horror stories about vaccinated dogs but isn't the diseases worse? Much much worse and effecting dog after dog after dog? I hope your dog does not live next door to me.

http://www.caberfeidh.com/Titers.htm

Ginny01OT

Titer are a way to tell via bloodwork whether a dog has the "acceptable" numbers of antibodies to be considered "immune" to the disease. It is done via a blood panel.

For instance, as a child I had the chicken pox and the mumps--didn't receive vaccinations--I did get the measles vaccination. A few years ago I had a bloodwork up to see if my "immunization levels" were adequate or whether I would need to be revaccinated--which I did not have to be.

Now a dog is initially vacinated for several different things, depending on the dog and the climate, etc--so anything the dog was initially vaccinated against would be wise to do titers on in lieu of revaccination which may not even be necessary

Dog5

I do titers on all my dogs (after initial puppy/youth vaccines). I do them yearly at the annual physical, just like one would do with vaccines. You need to of course talk to your vet about what he recommends, but titers should most likely be done for everything your dog has/needs to be vaccinated for. At my vet a physical with titers is usually about $100 more than a physical with vaccines. It's more expensive, yes, but I think it's totally worth it not to keep pumping all those vaccinations into your dog when he is already immune - it's just not healthy. Cost may also depend on whether your vet does his labs in house or has to send them out.

lizbethc38

Thanks for your responses Dog5 & Ginny. I suppose I should have stated that Muggsy has received yearly vaccines from his first puppy shots until now. It is coming up on his annual check-up. From everything I have read, it seems that many vaccines are sufficient for the life of the dog & the link that Orange County so kindly provided confirms that:
"Vaccines don’t inject immunity into a dog. Instead, they stimulate the immune system to form two kinds of cells, antibodies that fight the current infection, and memory cells that remain behind after the infection has been eradicated, to pump out more antibodies if the same virus is encountered in the future.

Memory cells persist for 20 years or more, and are not increased when the animal is re-vaccinated or re-exposed to the disease.

Nearly all previously vaccinated adult dogs are immune to parvovirus and distemper, and the titer test isn’t going to give you any useful information. You cannot make an immune dog “more immune” to a virus with additional vaccination, as the previous immunity will wipe out the virus in the vaccine. There will be no increase in immunity and no benefit to the dog."

He has 2 years to go on his 3 yr rabies vaccine & hopefully a rabies titer will be legally acceptable or they will have re-thought the law by then. And I'll just see what tests my vet recommends to screen him for TBD.
Thanks again for the advice.

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Dog5

I found out about titers when one of my Chi's started having bad reactions to his vaccines. My vet told me about them and we've been doing them on all my dogs ever since. Barney was 3 years old then, he's almost 12 now and has never needed a booster.
They just enacted that stupid law here, too, where they won't accept a rabies titer anymore, it has to be a shot (I don't know what it is in Fla). So we just made the call - no more rabies shots period. My Chi's never leave our house/yard so I feel much safer about forgoing the shot than taking a chance with those horrible reactions. No way am I putting them thru that so the county can make $5.

Kris L. Christine

You should ask for titers for distemper, hepatitis, and parvo -- those are 3 of the 4 core canine vaccines recommended by the American Animal Hospital Association and the World Small Animal Veterinary Association -- rabies is the 4th, but that is mandated by law, so you will have to vaccinate unless your dog qualifies for a medical exemption.

There are some quickie pass/fail in-house titer tests and then there are the titers that are done by labs which will give you a specific serum antibody titer count (the pass/fail are less expensive).

Below is more information on titers.

Kris

PERMISSION GRANTED TO CROSS-POST THIS MESSAGE.

Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and Don't Know, Dr. Ronald Schultz http://www.cedarbayvet.com/duration_of_immunity.htm

World Small Animal Veterinary Association 2007 Vaccine Guidelines http://www.wsava.org/SAC.htm Scroll down to Vaccine Guidelines 2007 (PDF)

The 2003 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are accessible online at http://www.leerburg.com/special_report.htm .

The 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are downloadable in PDF format at http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocumen...s06Revised.pdf .

Veterinarian, Dr. Robert Rogers,has an excellent presentation on veterinary vaccines at http://www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/

To shed some light on titer testing, the following is from Page 19 the American Animal Hospital Association's 2003 Canine Vaccine Guidelines under the heading "Serological Tests to Monitor Immunity: it states that "Although the committee does not feel it is necessary to determine titers to these core viruses on an annual basis because of the long minimum DOI [duration of immunity] for these products, titers can be used for your and/or your client's assurance that the animal has immunity. Experience with postvaccination titers for CDV [distemper], CAV [hepatitis], and CPV [parvo] shows that sterile immunity lasts for years...........The primary reason for the test is to ensure that you have a positive test after completing the puppy vaccination series."

From Page 16 of the 2003 AAHA Guidelines it reports that, "The MLV [modified live virus (such as distemper, hepatitis, parvo)] vaccines create an immunity that is similar to immunity after an animal recovers from infection." Further, on Page 17, " When MLV [modified live virus (such as distemper, hepatitis, parvo)] vaccines are used to immunize a dog, memory cells develop and likely persist for the life of the animal."

Dr. Alice Wolf, Professor of Small Animal Internal Medicine at Texas A&M College of Veterinary Medicine, stated in an address (Vaccines of the Present and Future http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB...00/PR00141.htm) at the 2001 World Small Animal Veterinary Association World Congress that: "MLV vaccines generally produce longer duration, more solid immunity. Both humoral and cell-mediated immune systems participate strongly in the response. A single vaccination may provide significant immunologic memory (as long as there is no maternal AB interference). MLV vaccines do not, or only infrequently, require revaccination ..."..

Combination Vaccines, Multiple Shots--on Page 16 of the 2003 AAHA Guidelines under Immunological Factors Determining Vaccine Safety, it states that: "Although increasing the number of components in a vaccine may be more convenient for the practitioner or owner, the likelihood for adverse effects may increase. Also, interference can occur among the components. Care must be taken not to administer a product containing too many vaccines simultaneously if adverse events are to be avoided and optimal immune responses are sought. "

If anyone would like copies of the American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines, the 1992 French challenge study demonstrating that dogs were immune to a rabies challenge 5 years after vaccination, the 2003 Italian study documenting fibrosarcomas at the presumed injection sites of rabies vaccines in dogs, as well as Dr. W. Jean Dodds' papers on vaccinal adverse reactions, please e-mail me at ledgespring@lincoln.midcoast.com.

lovemygreys

Titers are a waste of money IMO (though a huge money maker for vets). A high titer does not guarantee immunity and a low titer does not guarantee susceptibility because you can't measure cell mediated immunity which is what you need to know in order to determine if an animal is protected from the disease. If you can't believe a positive test, and you can't believe a negative test... why run it?

If I were to run titers, I'd only use the Cornell lab, as vac titers are their 'baby' and they have the most accurate test/extensive research on what is considered 'protective levels'. Once we acquire a dog, we vaccinate every year for 3 years and then move to a three year vaccination protocol.

Kris L. Christine

You are correct that it is important to use a reliable lab to do titer testing. Low titer counts do not necessarily mean that a dog will not be able to mount an effective immunological response to a disease challenge. Whether or not to booster if titers are very low is something you should decide with your veterinary care provider's advice.

Dr. Ronald Schultz, Chairman of Pathobiological Sciences at the University of Wisconsin School of Veterinary Medicine, is at the forefront of vaccine research and is one of the world’s leading authorities on veterinary vaccines, and he relies on titers for choosing a vaccine protocol for his own dogs. His canine vaccine studies form a significant part of the scientific base of the American Animal Hospital Association’s (AAHA) 2003 and 2006 Canine Vaccine Guidelines, Recommendations, and Supporting Literature, as well as the World Small Animal Veterinary Association's 2007 Vaccine Guidelines. "My own pets are vaccinated once or twice as pups and kittens, then never again except for rabies,” Wall Street Journal reporter Rhonda L. Rundle quoted Dr. Ronald Schultz in a July 31, 2002 article entitled Annual Pet Vaccinations may be Unnecessary, Fatal . Dr. Schultz knows something the pet-owning public doesn’t – he knows there’s no benefit in overvaccinating animals because immunity is not enhanced, but the risk of harmful adverse reactions is increased. He also knows that most core veterinary vaccines are protective for at least seven years, if not for the lifetime of the animal.

So often it seems "easier" and "less expensive" to give a booster rather than do titering, and the general impression is that vaccines are harmless.

From my own experience, I have found those to be false assumptions. The incredible costs associated with a dog that has a significant adverse reaciton to a vaccine can be staggering (which is why so many people have pet insurance), never mind the devastating emotional cost. I spent thousands and thousands of dollars trying to save Meadow with surgeries the vets thought could save his life. I learned the hard way -- hopefully the information I'm sharing with this forum will help others to avoid my mistakes.

The first entry under Appendix 2 of the 2003 American Animal Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines “Important Vaccination ‘Do’s and Don’ts” is “Do Not Vaccinate Needlessly – Don’t revaccinate more often than is needed and only with the vaccines that prevent diseases for which that animal is at risk.” They also caution veterinarians: “Do Not Assume that Vaccines Cannot Harm a Patient – Vaccines are potent medically active agents and have the very real potential of producing adverse events.”

Kris L. Christine

This is what Dr. Ronald Schultz had to say in his 2007 presentation to the AKC Canine Health Foundation entitled,What Everyone Needs to Know About Canine Vaccines and Vaccination Programs:

"An antibody titer no matter how low shows the animal has immunologic memory since memory effector B cells must be present to produce that antibody. Some dogs without antibody are protected from disease because they have T cell memory, that will provide cell mediated immunity (CMI). CMI will not protect from reinfection, but it will prevent disease."

"My own dogs, those of my children and grandchildren are vaccinated with MLV CDV, CPV-2, CPI, andCAV-2 vaccines once as puppies after the age of 12 weeks. An antibody titer is performedtwo or more weeks later and if found positive our dogs are never again vaccinated. "

The vaccines in the quote above are CDV (distemper), CPV-2 (parvovirus), CPI (canine parainfluenza), and CAV-2 (hepatitis), and Dr. Ronald Schultz is the Chair of the Department of Pathobiological Sciences at the University of Wisconsin School of Veterinary Medicine. His challenge and serological studies on canine vaccines form a large part of the scientific data base upon which the 2003 and 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are based, as well as the 2007 World Small Animal Veterinary Association's Vaccine Guidelines.

Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and Don't Know, Dr. Ronald Schultz http://www.cedarbayvet.com/duration_of_immunity.htm

Orange County Ca

Thanks for that and especially the link.

My dog gets rabies, DHP Booster which is Distemper, Hepatatis and Parvovirus. One shot called DHP Booster. And a Corona Booster. Corona is similar to Parvo I understand.

Plus PetSmart Hotel requires a Parvo Booster every 6 months. Sheesh.

So your man skips the DHP shot if the titers is OK.

Sounds OK to me but the linked article doesn't come out and say to quit getting boosters. The Doc. might but it sounds esperimental to me. A lot of "if" type statements in there.

borzoimom

Exactly. We do femka titers for all but rabies ( required by law). This is because there is concern with her immune system and how much it can take.

Kris L. Christine

Orange County Ca,


I'm shocked that anyone would require a parvo booster every 6 months!
What many dog owners (and obviously Pet Smart Hotel) do not realize is that the distemper, hepatitis, and parvo vaccines are what is called MLV's -- modified live virus vaccines and these vaccines convey long-term duration of immunity (DOI). There is no point in giving redundant boosters because it does not increase your dog's immunity and needlessly exposes your dog to the risk of adverse side affects, some of which can be life-threatening -- why would you want to pay for something for which your dog derives no benefit and which has the potential to harm them?

On Page 18 of the 2003 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines (links to guidelines at bottom of post), it states that: [i]“We now know that booster injections are of no value in dogs already immune, and immunity from distemper infection and vaccination lasts for a minimum of 7 years based on challenge studies and up to 15 years (a lifetime) based on antibody titer.”[/I] The first entry under Appendix 2 of the AAHA Guidelines “Important Vaccination ‘Do’s and Don’ts” is “Do Not Vaccinate Needlessly – Don’t revaccinate more often than is needed and only with the vaccines that prevent diseases for which that animal is at risk.” They also caution veterinarians: “Do Not Assume that Vaccines Cannot Harm a Patient – Vaccines are potent medically active agents and have the very real potential of producing adverse events.”

The World Small Animal Veterinary Association's 2007 Vaccine Guidelines (link to guidelines at bottom of post) state that "DOI after vaccination with MLV vaccines is 7 years or longer, based on challenge and serological studies."

The American Veterinary Medical Association's 2001 Principles of Vaccination states that “Unnecessary stimulation of the immune system does not result in enhanced disease resistance, and may increase the risk of adverse post-vaccination events.” They elaborate by reporting that: “Possible adverse events include failure to immunize, anaphylaxis, immunosuppression, autoimmune disorders, transient infections, and/or long-term infected carrier states. "

The point here is do not redundantly vaccinate your dog, even if the redundant vaccinations are being administered free of charge -- the consequences of a potential adverse reaction will cost you and your dog dearly. Have a talk with Pet Smart Hotels and give them the links below -- it is unacceptable that they require a parvo shot every 6 months -- the human equivalent would be a polio shot every 6 months.

Excellent information on veterinary vaccines is available at the sites below:

Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and Don't Know, Dr. Ronald Schultz http://www.cedarbayvet.com/duration_of_immunity.htm

World Small Animal Veterinary Association 2007 Vaccine Guidelines http://www.wsava.org/SAC.htm Scroll down to Vaccine Guidelines 2007 (PDF)

The 2003 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are accessible online at http://www.leerburg.com/special_report.htm .

The 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are downloadable in PDF format at http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocumen...s06Revised.pdf .

Veterinarian, Dr. Robert Rogers,has an excellent presentation on veterinary vaccines at http://www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/

Kris L. Christine

There is an interesting article on veterinary vaccines which you can read in its entirety at the link below.

Are Our Pets Being Overvaccinated, by Melissa Burden, The Press http://www.presspublications.com/pag...lreports10.asp

(Dr. W. Jean Dodds) “But there is really no breed that is not at risk,” she said. The only vaccination needed, she asserts, is the rabies vaccine because it is legally required. Dogs’ and cats’ immune systems mature fully at 6 months old, she explained. If canine distemper, feline distemper and parvovirus vaccines are given after 6 months, a pet has immunity for the rest of its life.

(Dr. Robert Rogers) “Dogs and cats no longer need to be vaccinated against distemper, parvo, and feline leukemia every year,” Rogers said. “Once the initial series of puppy or kitten vaccinations and first annual vaccinations are completed, immunity…persists for life. Not only are annual boosters for parvo and distemper unnecessary, they subject the pet to the potential risk of adverse reactions, he added.

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