Surgery - Where do we draw the line?

txjeff

At the risk of sounding a bit cold, as a guy, (but I'm really not), I'm trying to make sense of this in my head.

First off, my wife of 2 years brought with her a very cute chihuahua, named Maybelline. She was the runt of the litter and was just the size of her hand when she bought her for $250. Valeri had her trained, when she would go to work or sleep, to go into her little carrying box. Then, I came along, and I persuaded her to let the dog get in bed with us and she had the run of the house when we both would go to work. She is very well mannered and potty trained. We also put a dog/cat door in (I have an older cat as well). She also brought with her a second psycho cat (weird) and a big fish tank and a six foot corn snake who hangs out in a back bedroom in a fish tank. (As far from me as possible).

About a year ago, Maybelline then 5, and weighing 3.4 pounds, was diagnosed with subluxation of both knees in the rear. This is defined as a congenital disorder for this breed.

She is now, at age 6, at stage 3 of 4 on the right knee, and stage 2 of the left knee. Insurance will not cover congenital disorders. So, we are looking at $1000 per knee. The first will have to be done in a few weeks. The second around 6 months from now.

I've been unemployed for 2.5 years and my wife is on marginal income. If I was very rich, I would plop down the money without a thought. But we are facing hard times in a matter of months with dwindling savings.

So, this is where my brain is struggling. I'm thinking, "Sheesh. We could buy eight dogs for the price of the 2 surgeries. Should we really spend $2000 for these surgeries? Plus, it is 5-6 weeks of recovery for each surgery.

What would you do? I could take out a loan in the hope that I will have a job in the near future,, but there is no guarantee. My mom had been generous but that won't help in this case, and my wife's parents don't want to help, even thought they are wealthy.

I don't want anyone here to think I'm begging either. Not the case. I'm just trying to hear some thoughts about it.

Thanks much and Happy Thanksgiving.

Curbside Prophet

If I were in this predicament, I would probably choose to have the dog put to sleep...but only after a last ditch effort to rehome the dog with someone who would be willing to pay the medical bills. But how likely is that? Not very. And considering the quality of life the dog would have after the surgeries, irregardless of the cost, I'd still probably choose to have the dog put to sleep. So, if it were me, I would not pay that kind of money. I'm sure you love your dog to pieces, and if money meant nothing it would be a difficult choice for me too, but it would kill me to see the dog hobbling around and being less of a dog. Did the vet mention anything about what to expect after recovery? This would clear my mind if I knew.

pinkpuppy360

My kitty just got a $2500 vet bill. You should of thought of the responsibilities that came when you purchased your dog, like the $ of the vet bills. You need to come up with the money. It sounds like i will dye if you dont pay up.

I extreamly disagree with curbsire, sorry. Everyones got a opionion

drfong

Yes everyone has an opinion, but please try not be be a jerk while expressing it. I'm glad you can afford a $2500 bill from the vet, but alot of people can not. Not to mention alot of people have procedures done that extent the life of an animal for their own sake not to extent the quality of life for the animal. I'm not saying that this dog can't have a good life with 2 bad legs hobbiling around for the rest of it's life, but will it be in constant pain? You don't know and your condeming someone who came here to get some advise and voice some frustration.

txjeff, it sounds like you have had some tuff times and i hope it turns around for you. I certianly would not go into debt for this surgery so I think that tells you where I come down on this question. Good luck to you and your family. I'm sure you will do what is right for your family.

Meghan&Pedro

My chi has luxated patella in one of his back legs - luckily for me he is only a grade 1.

But because I have done my resarch on this problem, I can feel for you!

Surgery also isn't guarenteed 100% to fix it. Make sure that you have a vet who has done the surgery before - otherwise it's less likely to be sucessful.

Your wife took a risk when she bought a 'runt' chi. She should have known that she was signing up for a potentially expensive run.

You should, with your wife, research the pro's and con's of surgery, the sucess rates, and all the info you can dig up on the topic and decide together if it's worth stressing your finances even thinner. But, without getting too deep into the deep hole I could dig myself into here - from what I've read she is bringing in 100% of the income, and if this is what she feels she should spend her money on, then that's her choice.

It may be hard to find a job that you feel is worth your time, but it is not hard to find a job - maybe the two of you should take on part time work (maybe not your dream job, but money's money) to help lift the stress of your finances - I have a feeling that is what most of this is about between the two of you.

You two need to come to terms with how money is brought in and how it should be spent within the household - money is a huge cause of relationship failures, and this is just one big expense - if you don't work it out it will only get worse.

I'm not rich, nor is my boyfriend. But we both work hard every day to bring home what we can - we might not have glamorous jobs, but we work so that we have the money to do what we need to get done - if our dog needed surgery, he would get it.

To defend her choice of spending the money on the surgery even farther - this dog is at all to her what most of our dogs are to us then this dog is her baby, and she would do anything that she can to make her dog happy and comfortable.

txjeff

A bit of a silly comment. First off I told you this was my wife's dog that came with the wedding. So, this is my wife's choice of dog. She is cute, but they are very susceptible to many congenital conditions. So, if it were me, being a reseaching type person, I would be forwarned of this breed and ensure that the one I bought was of healthy heredity. But, I know some people get caught up in the, "oh she's so cute" of a puppy or kitten, and then they are hooked, regardless of the responsibilities. It is why so many wind up at the animal shelters. In addition, wasn't it the responsibility of the seller not to breed a dog that had this hereditary condition just to pass it on to an unsuspecting customer? Did you know you can't spot this condition until several years later, so it is all about "buyer beware".

I had to give away a much larger dog around 10 years ago that wound up biting a child when I owned him, and he was too dangerous to trust. I gave him to a couple who lived on a farm, where he was at his best to run. I really had no intention of getting another. Just call me "lucky".

My cat, now around age 15, was clawed by a stray cat twice in a year (about a year or so ago) and got an infection that required $800 of surgery to clean and stitch the wound, and then another $150 the second time. I felt like a jerk shelling out that kind of money on a cat that is this old.

Well, I'm not really sure what I'm going to do yet. Perhaps I can delay surgery for a longer time until I get work.

From what I've read, the average life span of a small chihuahua like this is around 10 years, and she's 6. Hmmm...

Please keep the opinions coming. I appreciate it.

Jeff

txjeff

Hi Meghan and Pedro;

That is a nicely written post, although a bit filled with assumptions. I am working part time as a computer consultant, and my savings, and the generous donations of my mother have footed 80% of our household income. My wife makes only around $10,000 per year, but provides health benefits to us. I've been trying very hard to make a go of it independently, but the funds and work are simply too intermittent. So, about 2 months ago I started in earnest to find new work in the corporate world once again.

I'm finding sparse results with my job hunt and so far nothing, even with significantly lower salaries, has come through.

I'd be glad to let her pay 100% of the bill. In fact, I think it's only fair that she pay at least half of the bill, but that's not a reality. She doesn't have it.

I realize that the dog is like a baby, but I'm a bit more of a realist. A dog is not a baby. It's life span is a very small portion of a babies. Wouldn't it be nice if our dogs/cats would outlive us? Then we wouldn't go through the pain of their death over and over again? So strange. I never heard of all these vet bills and such when I was growing up. Now, there are all these designer dogs with inbred disorders. Way to go breeders!

Thanks again for your opinion. It will be helpful.

animalcraker

If I chose against the surgery, I would at minimal try to place the dog with a rescue before deciding to put her to sleep. She is still fairly young and has some more good years ahead of her, depending on her prognosis. There are many breed rescues that find the means to pay for expensive patella surgerys. They may be something for you to consider should you decide that surgery is too much of a financial burden for your family to bear.

txjeff

Thanks. That is something smart to keep in mind.

animalcraker

[QUOTE=txjeff;13683]Now, there are all these designer dogs with inbred disorders. Way to go breeders! [QUOTE]

By the way, They're not called breeders, They're called puppymillers. They could care less about the health or future of thier dogs, all they care about is the money that impulsive or uneducated buyers are willing to pay for thier so called "hybrid" mutt.

Dogged

Luxating patellas are a common problem with little dogs. Like you said, "Way to go breeders". How bad are her symptoms? I've seen many dogs with bad knees, and had a few myself, and although I didn't know "grade", usually they would hop a step here and there, or have short episodes of rather intense pain until the patella popped back to where it was supposed to go. Is she hobbled by this? If not and the majority of her life is good, I don't think you should be considering euthanasia. Maybe pain medication might be considered.

I personally could not euthanize or dump my problem on an already overburdened rescue organization due to the money. I would find the way to pay for it even if that meant going into debt. That is what credit cards are for. I was faced with a possible $3000 neck surgery for one of my dogs a few years ago, and I was absolutley ready to just put it on a credit card and pay it off over time. Lucky for my dog and me it didn't end up being necessary, but I would have done it, and I would do it again if need be. I feel we are responsible for these animals, we have taken on the responsibility for this life, and it is up to us to do what is necessary. I know others don't agree.

By the way, Chihuahuas are known to be a rather long lived breed, seeing 16 year old ones is not uncommon at all, in fact I have seen a few 19 year olds.

Those prices are not strange either, so you may want to reconsider getting any more animals, because surprisingly enough, they need medical care just like we do.

txjeff

2 years ago, the joint would pop out as she would jump on or off the couch.
It would freak her out, and for 2 days she would curl up and not move. This would happen every couple of months. But, now the joint is totally dislocated and although there is little pain, she is pretty hobbled by it. She "tripods" quite a bit, shying away from the bad leg. The vet is saying that if not now, then amputation may be the next step. The longer one waits, the more risk of poor results.

I used to be a banker, and I heartily disagree with running up a credit card and paying off high finance charges over a long period of time. That's why 75% of the US is more than $9000 in debt to credit cards. If I couldn't pay mine off at the end of the month I'd cut it up.


I've seen varying figures on life expectancy, and that the smaller ones tend go faster than the bigger ones. But, I'll assume she will live longer than 10 years.

I've had animals all my life; I've also had jobs all my life, until the past couple of years. So it is only now that it is a concern. I've never euthanized one. (And, quite frankly, this is not "my" pet. My wife bought her before we met.)
So, I find your last comment rude and uncalled for. I know they need medical care. But I think vets are now very, very creative with all these new ways of separating us from our money. Teeth cleaning. I never heard of that until around 1995. And now these one year vaccinations. That's a crock too when 3 year vacinnations are readily available. Vets do it to make you come back year after year. It's getting way out of hand. No wonder pet insurance is becoming more mainstream. Surprisingly enough, perhaps you should pay attention to that, instead of assuming I am neglectful.

But, you can bet I'll think over "pets" in the future. Maybe a goldfish.

I appreciate most of your opinions. Thanks.

txjeff

A picture I took the other day. Maybelline and Garth. She's still on top of things.
(So you don't think I'm just a meany)

Dogged

I also pay my credit card bills at the end of the month, but it is nice to know that I have that high limit in case I need it in an emergency. I don't go running up a credit card on new electrical equipment like TV's and stereos, but if my beloved dog (a living being that I decided to take responsibility for) needed expensive medical care, I would do it. That is what I think credit cards are good for. No, I wouldn't be thrilled with being in debt and paying those finance charges, but in a situation of life (or quality of life) or death, I would do it.


This is absolutely the opposite. Smaller dogs live longer. Great danes are known for only living to around 8-9 years old. Little dogs live much longer. Ask any vet.


Dental disease is one of the most common problems dogs have. Imagine what your teeth would be like if you didn't brush them or have them cleaned. Yuck! Dental disease can cause all sorts of problems with pets. All that bacteria being swallowed all the time and put into their system. The bacteria from dental disease commonly causes kidney and heart problems, not to mention the pain of rotten teeth. The same would happen to us if we didn't take care of our teeth. Someone I know was just recently diagnosed with a heart problem due to the bacteria from an infected tooth. The same happens in the dogs.

It has been commonplace for a very long time to do vaccinations yearly. It is just more recently that veterinarians have started doing the 2 or 3 year vaccinations, and some are slow to change. Plus the fact that even though some of the veterinary universities are recommending the 3 year vaccines, the manufacturers of the vaccines themselves are still saying their product will only protect for a year, so some vets are leary of changing. More and more vets are coming around to this, but change takes awhile especially for the older vets that have been doing it the same way for so long.

blackgavotte

Hello, its my turn now. I think you still have some choices yet, long before you think of euthanasia. If you absolutely cannot find the funds to do any surgery, do contact the GOOD, registered breeders in your area, they often have clubs, and a rescue committee within the club. Someone else may be able or willing to adopt the dog, or even just help you with the surgery costs.

You may be able to find a way to get the worst leg done at least, there is always a recovery time anyway, the least affected leg can be left for awhile, maybe you won't need to get it done at all. There are antiinflammatories that you can discuss with the vet. Luxating patellas have been around in toy breeds for soooo many years, I've groomed countless dogs with bad knees. Many of them actually do not badly at all, certainly its not a good thing, but dogs can cope better with this problem, as a rule, than with severe HD for example.

The other secret you need to know is that you can often negotiate the price. Is it a specialist who is doing the surgery? You don't necessarily need a specialist for this, there are many vets out there with " good hands" who do patellas all the time. Again this is where you need to contact the GOOD breeders in your area, network with them. A regular vet will be charging much less for the same surgery. Networking with chi. breeders in your area can help find the local vets who are good " bone men."

Often, if you come right down to it, you can tell the vet plain and simple that you cannot afford the surgery, you have to euthanize, is there any other choice for you, and I'd be willing to bet they will lower the cost for you. If not, again, start networking. You may even have to drive her to a different city, but it could well be worth it. Good luck with this. Its a tough call.

Does this dog hop a lot, or skip, does she seem in much discomfort at this point? Some patellas slip to the inside, and also to the outside of the leg. You can see some dogs with the problem stretching their back legs out to shift the ligaments etc back and forth, some get quite adept at this. I am not saying ignore the problem, but especially with the second leg, you may find she can get a lot of mileage out of the anti inflammatories if she needs them.

txjeff

Wow; That is such a great message. Thanks. I doubt very much that uthanize is in the picture (except as a negotiating tool). I was merely looking at all angles, and certainly reducing the costs. The vet is not really a specialist. He's a local vet, although with a "pretty" office. It almost appears as a human doctors office, with 4 little waiting rooms near the big waiting room. Modern. We definitely planned on going for a second opinion probably tomorrow, and comparing notes.

Regardless, the vet would do only one leg at a time, then immobilize it for many weeks. Then, she would go back in to have pins removed. And then, after about 5 weeks, she would be back to pseudo normal.

The price negotiation is a good idea.

As far as what the dog looks like running say from the house to the mailbox (around 40 ft); You can see she is a bit bow legged on both sides. And she will sometimes skip on the worst leg, and momentarily she might tripod it and then go back to normal.

I tried the stretch technique with both legs. The worst one feels pretty stiff, as I try to extend it the leg, at the knee joint. The other has better mobility and I can see some movement. The luxation is to the outside on both.

Thanks.

NewfCrazy

Here are some links to organizations that may be able to help you with your vet bills:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
American Animal Hospital Association
http://www.aahahelpingpets.org/home/
"The heartbreak happens all too often a pet owner is unable to
afford treatment and their sick or injured companion animal pays the
price.

If the owner is elderly, disabled or on a fixed income, the cost of
care may be too much of a stretch for their pocketbook. Perhaps they
have been victimized by crime, property loss or a job layoff and are
experiencing a temporary financial hardship making it too difficult
to afford pet care. And some animals, brought to clinics by Good
Samaritans, don't have an owner to pay for treatment. Whatever the
situation, the fact remains the same: When sick or injured animals
are unable to receive veterinary care, they suffer. Through the AAHA
Helping Pets Fund, veterinary care is possible for sick or injured
pets even if they have been abandoned or if their owner is
experiencing financial hardship."

Angels 4 Animals
www.Angels4Animals.org
"Angels4Animals, a non-profit organization and a program of Inner
Voice Community Services, has a mission to serve as the guardian
angel of animals whose caretakers find themselves in difficult
financial situations. At Angels4Animals we believe that animal owners
should not have to say goodbye to the animals that they love. Our
work is accomplished in conjunction with veterinary clinics across
the country, eager to assist as many animals, and their owners, as
possible. Our services range from financial aid to complete treatment
to those pets and pet owners in need."

Care Credit
www.carecredit.com
A credit card company for health care, including veterinary care.
"CareCredit, the leader in patient/client financing, has helped more
than 3 million patients/clients get the treatment or procedures they
needed and wanted. With a comprehensive range of plan options, for
treatment or procedure fees from $1 to over $25,000, we offer a plan
and a low monthly payment to fit comfortably into almost every
budget."

Feline Veterinary Emergency Assistance (FVEAP)
http://www.fveap.org/sys-tmpl/door/
"The NEED & The HELP: Seniors, People with disabilities, People who
have lost their job, Good Samaritans who rescue a cat or kitten - any
of these folks may need financial assistance to save a beloved
companion."

The Feline Veterinary Emergency Assistance Program is a nonprofit 501
(c)(3) organization that provides financial assistance to cat and
kitten guardians who are unable to afford veterinary services to save
their companions when life-threatening illness or injury strikes.

Help-A-Pet
http://www.help-a-pet.org/home.html
"Our efforts focus on serving the elderly, the disabled, and the
working poor. For lonely seniors, physically/mentally challenged
individuals and children of working parents, pets represent much more
than a diversion."

IMOM
http://www.imom.org
"Mission Statement:
Helping people help pets. To better the lives of sick, injured and
abused companion animals. We are dedicated to insure that no
companion animal has to be euthanized simply because their caretaker
is financially challenged."

The Pet Fund
http://thepetfund.com/
"The Pet Fund is a registered 501(c)3 nonprofit association that
provides financial assistance to owners of domestic animals who need
urgent veterinary care. Often animals are put down or suffer
needlessly because their owners cannot afford expensive surgery or
emergency vet visits. Companion animal owners must often make the
difficult decision to put an animal down or neglect urgent medical
needs because of the costs involved. The purpose of the Pet Fund is
to work towards a future where decisions about companion animal
medical care need never be made on the basis of cost."

United Animal Nations
http://www.uan.org/lifeline/index.html
"The mission of LifeLine is to help homeless or recently rescued
animals suffering from life-threatening conditions that require
specific and immediate emergency veterinary care. We strive to serve
Good Samaritans and rescue groups who take in sick or injured
animals. In certain cases, LifeLine can also assist senior citizens
and low-income families pay for immediate emergency veterinary care."

UK Assistance with Veterinary Bills
http://www.petloversonline.co.uk/financial.htm
"Most of us can cope with the financial commitment involved in the
day to day care of our pets. However, how many of us come out in a
cold sweat when our pet is ill or injured and we know we have to take
it to the vet? Most of us are fortunate enough to be able to afford
it but, some of us who love our animals dearly cannot. Unfortunately
we do not have a PDSA or a RSPCA Centre within our area, but there
are a few charities who may be able to help."

Other Groups Who are Breed or Injury Specific:

Corgi Aid
http://www.corgiaid.org/

Dachshunds Needing IVDD surgery
http://members.rushmore.com/~dds/applyforhelp.htm


HandicappedPets.com
http://www.handicappedpets.com/Articles/help/
"From time to time, HandicappedPets.com recognizes a caretaker of
handicapped pets that need some special attention, and a little extra
help. There are those who are so selflessly dedicated to their animal
families that they give up a little more than they can afford."

Labrador Lifeline
http://www.labradorlifeline.org/success/2005-abbey.htm

LabMed: Rx For Rescued Labs
http://www.labmed.org/aid_main.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If it were me, my decision would be based on the prognosis for recovery and quality of life afterwards rather than the cost - but I realize that not everyone feels that way.

Jessica&Crew

You need to look into other vets. The surgery can be much lower than what you are being quoted. My Yorkie had grade 3 and grade 4 in her back legs. Surgery was only quotes at $375 for both legs.

There is plenty of quality of life for that dog.

Look at my petfinder page for MANY financial options:

http://www.petfinder.com/shelters/MO161.html

If anything, before killing the dog for something you dont feel you can affoard, look into getting it into rescue.

txjeff

Thanks again for all the info and fast responses. I appreciate it.

As an update, our neighbor mentioned a vet that she liked a few weeks ago, and I already decided to get a second opinion anyway, so we went to them on Monday.

This should be a huge first question if you ever go to a new vet:
Are you folks simply GPs of animals, or do you also perform surgery in house?

The reason for this became evident when we visited the second place. The first vet, who are nice people, don't get me wrong, are the all in one kind of place, surgery included. The second place we went to is a GP kind of place, and if surgery is deemed necessary, you are sent to a place that specializes in animal surgery.

So, the first vet was strong about "your dog needs this surgery or will suffer an amputation in the long run". That's when I got on the web and couldn't find a single person that said their Chihuahua suffered that result by ignoring major luxation surgery.

The second vet said, "Well, the vast majority of Chihuahua's have subluxation. It's not uncommon. But, only 5% ever need a surgery, and of that 5%, mostly it's a lesser knee surgery, cleaning up sharp edges, rather than big time ortho surgery, requiring long time recovery, risk of death of this tiny dog, and lot's of money." He said that "Sure, the dog will be a bit gimpy, but if she's not in pain, then there is not a quality of life loss. Nor had he ever heard of amputation being a casualty of subluxation."

So, this was totally the other direction of the first vet. And, in my opinion, why is it so different? Money. The first vet makes allot of money off of this kind of surgery. Is it in the animals best interest? Only if pain or life loss is a strong pointer. But if it doesn't exist, then this is only in one person's interest, and it's not the customer.

Plus, we've been getting this heart worm med Revolution, which the dog hates, and it's an exercise to fool her into swallowing it. So, they offered a different one (even though for years we asked vet 1 if there was a different one without success). We changed to Interceptor with vet 2, and she actually likes the taste. Go figure.

So, we are considering this a wonderful Xmas present and we're happy that not only is our dog's life spared a ton of misery, but we also have a bit more time for me to get work.

Thanks again, Jeff

Curbside Prophet

Thanks for sharing what you've learned. I hope others will read this and question their vets practice too. Good luck in all your endevours, and keep us posted.