Thoughts about older spays?

Willowy

I know 2 unspayed bitches. They do not belong to me, but to aquaintances of mine, and both families are fairly low-income. I would like to offer to pay for these dogs to be spayed, and I'd like some thoughts on the subject. Like, whether it would be worth it or not, and what the health benefits/drawbacks would be. I'm not really familiar with the effects of later spays; all of my female dogs were spayed at 6 months. I have only had one dog (a stray) spayed after a heat, and it didn't go as well as I would have hoped for. Although she was fine after some recovery time.

One is a miniature Dachshund (9 pounds), about 6-7 years old. Her current family just got her over the summer, her first family "didn't want her anymore". She has had 2 litters, the last one being about 3-4 years ago. They sold the pups for $300.00 each . Her former family claims that she hadn't gone into heat for the last 2 years that they had her (probably the reason they didn't want her anymore), and she hasn't noticeably gone into heat since her new family got her---August, maybe September. Even so, she is exclusively a housedog, and is supervised while outside. So I don't think she'll be getting pregnant accidentally. She is well cared for-----shots, Heartgard, flea meds, etc. I think her family would like to have her spayed but cannot afford it just now, they may be saving up for it. They just had their cat spayed (unspayed cats are worse than unspayed dogs), so are low on funds currently. And they did not expect to get the dog, so all dog-related costs have not been budgeted for. I'm sure they would accept if I offered.

The second dog is a 4-year old yellow Lab. She had an unplanned litter 2 years ago. "Fortunately", the father was also a yellow Lab, so they were able to sell the pups (for $50 each) fairly easily. She is kept outdoors in a chain-link pen, her owners do not believe that dogs can mate through chain-link. She was tethered at the time she was mated before. She has not been vaccinated since her puppy shots, and is not given Heartgard or flea meds. Her owners just had a baby, and so do not have as much time for her. I don't know why they never had her spayed, they may not believe that it's necessary, or they may not be willing to spend the money. Or, since she is supposed to be a hunting dog, they may believe that she won't hunt as well if she's spayed. This is a common belief. So I don't know if they would accept my offer. I really want to have HER spayed, especially, I hate the idea of more Labs in the world.

So, here's the question-----what benefits would come from having them spayed at this point, besides preventing further litters from the Lab (which would be great)? I'm sure the ship has already sailed on the mammary gland cancer issue. And I don't know how large of a threat Pyometra is to them. And I'm worried that they may have issues with the surgery, either from bleeding or from the anesthetic. I would hate to lose either of them, especially since it would be on my watch. I wouldn't like to be blamed for their deaths. I know routine spays are pretty safe, but I don't know the exact statistics on losses. Is there anything I could do to minimize any risks? Any other advice welcomed. Talk amongst yourselves----discuss .

peaches12345

After 6 years it is considered high risk. I had to have my pei spayed at 7 years old due to an infection that would have killed her. I had not had her spayed prior due to the fact she was never around other males and is a house dog. The vet gave me a list of all the issues that could arise and not to mention when she got home it took her over 2 weeks to feel even start to act like herself. she had a fever for over 4 days and was on pain meds. To me unless the 6 year old has an infection, I would recommend not having it done. As for the lab, I would say she should be okay. She is not classified as a senior yet.

lovemygreys

6-7 and 4 years old? Those dogs aren't really that old...esp for the small breed doxie. I have regularly seen dogs 10+ years old spayed. And LOTS more at 4+ years old spayed. I've only had one pup die during a spay and she was only 3. Our own Erin was spayed at 12 when she came off the farm and we have a handful of our own personal pet bitches that were spayed just after 4. At the end of the day, I'd rather do a spay on a healthy 7 or 8 year old dog, than do emergency spay on that same dog who's suddenly very sick with pyometria. I've never had a dog take two weeks to recover from a spay done while they are healthy. Heck, even our girl Erin that was spayed at 12 AND had all of her teeth removed during the same surgery was up and about, feeling herself again within a week. But, the outcome/recovery time is an individual thing and can be dependent on the overall health of the dog and skill of the vet as well.

The best thing you can do to minimize risk is have pre-surgery bloodwork done (about $60 at our vet) and follow all the post-surgery care instructions.

One benefit to the lab owners is that if she is a hunting dog, she could be taken out hunting any time of the year. They wouldn't have to worry about her being in season...I'm sure a dog in heat does not a good hunting dog make I think it's admirable that you are trying to get through to these people, but based on your description of them, what they believe and how they treat their dog, you may as well be banging your head against the floor if you think they'll change their mind. Good luck.

If you think the owner of the doxie would be open to having her spayed sooner rather than later, I would absolutely pursue it. I think you earn an extra set of angel wings for helping to prevent more unwanted pets in this world....Even house dogs and owners with the best intentions sometimes have an "oops"...a spayed dog is the only way to be SURE a dog won't contribute to the pet overpopulation problem.

vabird

I believe peach's dog recovered so slowly was because she had a pyometra. That's a whole different ballgame.
The ages of the dogs will increase the possibility of complications a little but not greatly. The risk of later pyometras outweighs the risk of having the spays done now.

Shalva

I spayed my girl meghan at six.....
Cuinn was neutered at five.....

I wouldn't worry and i would have it done..... pyometra is a risk especially to an older dog that is coming into season over and over and NOT being bred.....
also a pregnancy in an older bitch is not a good thing either.....

I would have them spayed.....

show people and breeders routinely have bitches spayed at 5,6,7 years of age.... Wabana just spayed her bitch at five..... I wouldn't worry and I would just have them spayed.
s

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briteday

Our recently adopted former show dog was just spayed last week at 8. She was her old self the next morning. She'll get sutures removed at 7-10 days post surgery.

Even if the doxie does not appear to be in heat she still may be. When we got our new little dog she was in heat but took care of all of her own needs. If someone hadn't told me, I wouldn't have known. She licked down below a little more, but that was about it.

The lab is another story. Sad, but all too common. Too bad they do no vet care with her and keep her in a kennel. But she needs to be spayed as well. Probably cost a bit more overall since she needs shots, heartworm, and then the surgery. And hopefully they would do the follow up care to have sutures removed and the wound checked.

If you can afford the vet to spay them, great. If not, you might look for a low cost alternative at a humane society, or other non-profit organization in your area.

Willowy

Thanks. I think I will offer, but I don't know when. What time of the year do dogs usually go into heat? I figure the Lab should have a fairly natural cycle, being outside all the time, but the Doxie might have a different cycle, being inside with the artificial lighting and heat.

Though the Humane Society doesn't have a low-cost program, there are a few rescue agencies that have grants available, and they like to target Labs, since that's the main overpopulated breed around here. They may not give a grant for the Doxie, but I think I have a good chance of getting some help on the Lab. And I can ask my mom---she's a sucker for helping animals, she'll probably pay half. She actually wants to offer, too, but is unsure about the owners, as to whether they'd be offended or not. It is a little chancy to offer money to people, you never know if they'll take it the wrong way or not. "Charity", you know.

I have "babysat" for the Lab a couple times, next time I'll have her in for shots and a heartworm test. I'll talk to them about spaying, putting it in the light of "since you just had a baby, you certainly can't deal with pups right now. Want me to do something about it?". I could also point out that they may not be so "lucky" to have a stray Lab around this time, and could be stuck with a dozen half-pit pups that they can't get rid of (sorry, pit people; I know pit mixes can be lovely dogs, but the chances of them all finding responsible homes are slim, and the local Humane Society automatically euthanizes all pits and pit mixes. And there are at least 3 pits living in the same trailer court). You'd think they would have learned; with the one litter, they had an emergency with a pup that cost a lot. She had 12 pups, with 2 stillborn, and you know it costs a lot to supply 10 large puppies with Puppy Chow for 8 weeks. And they did get the pups their first shots, which is another significant expense. I'm sure they took a loss on those pups. So they might jump at the chance to have her spayed, I won't know until I ask.

Ok, so I have another question-----would it worth it to spring for a laser spay for the Doxie? Is there really that much of a benefit to using a laser, to justify the extra cost, or is it propaganda spread by the vet who just wants to pay off his laser loan?

briteday

My recently spayed dog just had good old fashioned surgery by a good old fashioned vet. And she was just as perky as before the morning after surgery. I haven't seen any difference in the dogs spayed with laser vs a scalpel. I think either is appropriate in the right hands.

I'm thinking that younger vets or large clinics may opt for the technology of lasers. It's quicker and makes very clean cuts easily that will heal quickly. But a skilled vet who has always done surgery the old way seems to work just as well.

I think it's a personal decision.

peaches12345

Well she did have pyometra. It very well could have been the reason for her slow recovery. All I know is the vet did say the dogs were at greater risk when they are spayed at an older age. I would make sure to do lots of research and ask plenty of question from the vet. Questions are always free. Good Luck.

rustysdad

Not to complicate the issue for you but another issue to consider is the possibility of latter incontinence. More often with female dogs, hormone-responsive urinary incontinence can occur months to years after neutering.

scintillady

I would think that donating heartworm medication would be even more important than having them spayed, especially the outside dog. My rescued dog was treated for heartworm just before I got her. Luckily she had a mild case, so she recovered well. If you have ever seen the damage heartworms can do to a dog, you will never forget it! It is one of the most cruel and painful things a dog can go through, causing them to be short of breath and panicky, heart failure, etc. before they die, if not treated early. I'm not saying you shouldn't help with the spaying, but if funds are tight I would do the heartworm test and prevention first, after all, they can keep her away from male dogs easier than they can keep her away from mosquitoes.

Shalva

regarding the heartworm....
heartworm pills are very expensive
try getting the heartworm test done and buying a bottle of cattle and swine ivermectin which will last them several years and will accomplish the same thing as the heatguard at a significantly reduced cost.
s

Willowy

Yeah, my first dog (spayed at 6 months) had spay incontinence. It started right after she was spayed, and stopped when she was 8 years old. menopause, maybe? From what I've read, the chances of it occuring are lower if the dog has been through at least 1 heat, or if she's had pups. It's most common in dogs spayed before sexual maturity. Though it can occur in any dog. It would only be a problem for the Doxie, since the Lab is an outdoor dog. It doesn't matter if an outdoor dog is leaky. I'd really like to prevent future litters with this Lab, seriously.

I've read about the Ivomec for heartworm prevention. I'm comfortable with the concept, would have no problem with acquiring the Ivomec (farm supply stores galore!) and I'd like to do it with my own dogs, but I'm really not up for the argument with the vet. Yet. I'll try it someday. And Heartgard is only about $5.00 a month each, I can afford that right now. If I ever find money is a little tighter, I'll definitely go to Ivomec. I don't know if I'd be able to get the Lab's owners to give her the Heartgard/Ivomec, and I don't necessarily see her once a month for dosing her myself. I'll think about what I can do about that, though. I know another dog whose owners don't give him Heartgard, and I go running (well, I don't run, he does, with my dogs) with him and his teenage owner once a week or so....I think I'll pick up some Ivomec and give it to him regularly. He's such a nice dog, I'd hate to see him get heartworms.

rustysdad

you have an obviously warm heart for those cold noses. don't ever change.

scintillady

There's one big problem with giving the dog the heartguard on your own. If the dog hasn't been tested and hasn't been found heartworm negative or even negative for microfilaria (heartworm larvae) and you give the dog the heartguard, the dead and dying heartworms could give the dog a blood clot and kill him/her. I wouldn't chance it, especially since you say the dog goes running with you. Dogs are on severely restricted activity when they are treated for heartworm, so that the flood of dead worms or larvae don't cause a clot and cause heart failure. If they have been tested and are negative, and you give the preventative regularly, it isn't a problem, because they never get a chance to build up enough to flood the system.
Like everyone said before me, it is wonderful of you to want to do this, just be careful. I never knew what the big fuss over heartworm was until I got Ruby, who was being treated for it, and who was on restricted activity. At first she was only allowed to go out to the bathroom in the yard, and even that made her severely short of breath. She is much better now, and has to have her last heartworm test in April (hopefully) and she can actually go on long walks now with not too much trouble.

Inga

We have over a dozen vets that work with us on our rescue project. Dogs are given Heart worm meds as a preventative if they don't have Heart worm and as a treatment if they do. It is not the best way to go but in the really bad situations these dogs are in, it is the best we can offer. It takes like 18 months on the Heart-worm meds each month to cure. Most of the dogs have done very well on this. Again, it is not the best option but they do use this treatment. We have treated over 100 dogs this way.

Willowy

Yeah, I second what Inga said. I have done a lot of research on it, and evidently Heartgard and preventative doses of Ivermectin do not affect the adult heartworms significantly. They just kill the microfilarae. So, since the heartworms are no longer replacing themselves, the adult heartworms will eventually die of old age, old age coming on faster than normal because the Ivemectin does weaken them somewhat. This worm death can cause clotting, but so can the naturally dying heartworms if the dog is left untreated. It's not as large of a risk as the traditional "fast-kill" method of heartworm treatment, because the worms are not dying en masse. And, let's not kid ourselves, these people are not going to spend the money to have the dogs treated for heartworm, so getting a positive result on the tests wouldn't mean anything anyway. So, since Ivermectin is both the preventative and an inexpensive, slow treatment for heartworms, I feel safe in giving it to them without testing. It's better than nothing. Now I'm really starting to get carried away----I think I'll start treating my aunt's farm dog (translation of "farm dog": no vet care ever) with the Ivermectin, too.

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