Crystals in urine

elenajas · 04-11-2009, 11:23 PM

At 2, I would say he is at least an adult, so he *could* do the senior food, but I would still choose to feed regular. I would still feel the younger dog the regular food. 6 really isnt "that" old, and I dont know that I would go to a senior food yet, granted larger dogs live shorter lives. I would check the Innova website and see if they talk about the ages suggested for their foods. The Innova is much more nutritionally dense (and a zillion times better) than the Eukanuba. The Innova is meat based, whereas the Euk is corn based. I would lower the amount you are feeding slowly, and see how it goes. If they appear really hungry you could always give them a few spoonfuls of low salt (or at least rinsed) green beans which are low calorie and filling and are often recommended for dog diets. You can also lessen the amount of green beans over time too. Dog's stomachs are like accordians and will adjust over time to the smaller amount.

Good luck with the distilled water, you could even try cran pills while on the antibiotics although waiting is fine too. The distilled water, cran/berry balance, apple cider vinegar, and vitamin C are all good to try. And Cran pills are not very expensive to use forever as preventative.

Also, side note, but my dogs are small, and I was wondering how big the cockapoo was? For example, my Daisy is a larger JRT and weighs about 16-17 pounds. she gets 1/3 of a cup twice a day (so 2/3 of a cup total per day). For example, here are the calories for 3 foods (Innova and Evo are made by the same company). I feed the Wellness Core. But as you can see, they are similiar in calories for the most part.

Innova 504 kcal/cup (5.6 oz = 1 cup)
Evo 537 kcal/cup (4.40 oz = 1 cup)
Wellness Core Per cup 430 cal

You might want to consider switching from the Innova to the Evo, or if it is cheaper, the Wellness Core as there is some who think that a higher protein diet is better for the UTI prevention. You can also try the canned for extra moisture. Make sure you are getting LOTS of water! (higher protein is great, but the regular is great too--its really just a preference thing, but it is another thing to try if you still have issues).

As far as finding a vet who is knowledgeable about canine nutrition, sadly, it is a slow thing with vets--some have come around and are becoming very knowledgeable about foods and nutrition, but many have not. I would call around vets to ask what foods they recommend, and what they sell. If they sell lots of Science diet or Hills, and recommend Euk or Grocery brands--well thats the kind of vet you already have. If they say oh we sell Innova, or Wellness or Evo, or something like that, you can bet they are more forward thinking. Also, if they are ok with a raw diet, it shows they have a good deal of nutritional training. So those are good questions to ask. (although with raw, some vets are still wary--not b/c of the diet--but b/c many pet owners think throwing down some raw meat is what raw is about--and it is actually a specific and measured diet of meat, organs, and bone and supplements, and if people dont know what they are doing they can have a mal nourished dog. So just keep that in mind.

BaileyBerger · 04-13-2009, 05:42 AM

Bailey our second Leonberger was misdiagnosed with struvite crystals caused by a higher than normal urine pH. A urinalysis was performed and showed a higher than normal pH and struvite crystals. The vet was a newer one at the practice we've used for a long time. As a precaution, she gave Bailey a course of antibiotics. The vet didn't give anything for the high urine pH.

After Bailey started urinating the same or worse than when he came home, every fifteen minutes to every hour, I requested another vet. The second vet diagnosed him with a condition found in some breeds where they have a higher than normal urine pH. This causes struvite crystals to form. She assumed that Bailey must have this because her dog has it.

Bailey was started on the treatment and we noticed a little improvement after a couple of days. Bailey could wait up to two hours most days.

Then I started reading online about struvite crystals. One site in particular was helpful, the Merck Vet Manual. It said that most of the time when there's a higher than normal urine pH and struvite crystals it's caused by an infection. Sometimes the infection can be subclinical and not show in a urinalysis.

I called the vet back and requested a second urinalysis. This time it showed a moderate amount of bacteria. I also said that I'd like to see Bailey stay on the antibiotics for at least three weeks (as per another article I found on the internet written by two tech vets). She agreed to do that. She also said that it's very possible Bailey had a subclinical urinary tract infection when the urinalysis showed no bacteria present.

After three weeks on antibiotics Bailey is urinating about every five hours. He'll have another urinalysis this week to make sure the infection is completely gone.

It's been a frustrating time for both Bailey and us. Despite his urinary problems during the last five months we've trained and socialized him. Hands down he's the friendliest dog at the dog park.

I remember the first vet telling us our puppy was manipulating us. I was shocked that she'd believed that a four to six month old puppy was capable of that. Yes Leonbergers are very intelligent and can problem solve. But manipulation?

There was a mixed signal though. We learned that Bailey enjoyed lying on the front porch to cool off. We assumed he wanted to go out to relieve himself. Once we got that figured out and on the proper medication, our BaileyBerger started urinating more like a normal nine month old puppy. Now we can finally begin his housebreaking training.

koen8r · 04-21-2009, 01:22 PM

Hi everyone,

I am new to the forum, and quite interested in your discussion. My husband and I have a 3 year old lab and a 4 year old lhasapoo. Our lab (Koen) eats the Euk lab food, and the lhasapoo (Star) eats nutro sensitive skin. We originally wanted to put Koen on Innova, but after 4 months of upset stomachs and serious diarrhea, we decided it was just to rich for his system. We also just found out that Star has crystals in her urine, and were, like others, instructed to feed her a Hills prescription food along with the antibiotics.

Any thoughts on the Nutro food? I want our pups to eat a high quality food, but Koen didn't do well on the innova, so maybe there's another option - i know several others have been mentioned here. Are they as rich as the innova? We also considered Solid Gold brand (might have the name wrong).

Thanks for all the knowledge everyone here shares

!

Christa

elenajas · 04-21-2009, 02:10 PM

Hi Christa!

Ok, first off, Nutro is a terrible food. Eukanuba is bad just b/c it is a bag of corn and fillers and chemicals, but Nutro takes the cake. They have had many issues, and recently had problems b/c the level of the euthanasia drug (used for shelter dogs and cats) was too high in there food. Yes, it is legal to use euthanized dogs and cats in dog food. Go figure. Many dogs have become ill with Nutro, and I wouldnt trust them for one second.

That being said, Innova is not a rich food. Many people get confused as to what rich means. Innova is a food based on meat, and species appropriate diet. However, changing to a new food can give many dogs diahhrea and upset tummies, and some are more sensitive than others. You should always transition your foods, (adding more of the new and less of the old slowly) and for some dogs, this can be done in a week, some need a month. Solid Gold makes a supplement to help with this, if you have big problems. Now imagine, if you ate corn exclusively for life and suddenly ate meat every meal--your tummy might not be so happy for a while too. So, you can try the Innova again if you want, but if youwould rather there are many other foods out there that might work as well if not better.

I would suggest Wellness, or Wellness Core. Both are excellent foods. Solid Gold is also a good food. Being a large breed, you should just check the levels of calcium on the bag to make sure it is less than 1.5. So, I would suggest either of those (or the Innova). Evo is also an excellent food as is Nature's Variety (make sure it is Natures variety as many have similiar names). I would transition very slowly and use the Solid gold powder if your dog is very sensitive. You can also add pure canned pumpkin (not pie filling!) a spoonful or two to the food or separate--as it works like pepto for dogs and they usually like the taste.

As for your dog with crystals, I would feed both dogs the same food. So try the Wellness Core (my first suggestion) and if they do well on it, good. if not, you could always just try the Wellness Core for your dog with the crystals (or innova) and try the others out for your dog with the sensitive tummy. I would read my previous posts about Berry balance, cranberry pills, vitamin C, distilled water, test strips (if you want to go that far), and how those prescription diets just mask the symptoms. I would rather have a healthy dog, than a dog with its symptoms just covered up.

Also how much are you feeding the lab? Overfeeding is a natural cause for diahhrea. You would be feeding the lab LESS of the Innova than you did of the Euk or Nutro. Check and compare the calories....you are probably definitely over feeding the Lab with the Innova.

good luck!

koen8r · 04-22-2009, 06:56 PM

Elenajas,

Thank you so much for your detailed reply! We actually just got the final urinalysis results back, and it turns out that Star (the lhasapoo) does not have crystals in her urine, so the vet thinks she just has bladder stones and a bad UTI. She has been doing very well on the Nutro food thus far - it cleared her skin problems right up - but I have no interest in supporting a company with the practices you described. I do plan on switching both of our dogs to a better diet - either the Innova, or one of the others you mentioned. I thought only the grocery brands did stuff like that

!

When we originally put Koen on the Innova, we switched him over very slowly, mixing his old food ( I think it was science diet) in at a decreasing ratio for over a month, but he just never got used to the Innova. He was on it for at least 4 months, and when we switched him from that to the Euk, the diarrhea cleared up immediately. I'm not sure what the issue was with it. I know it was not an overfeeding issue, as we were feeding the amount directed, and he is by nature a picky eater, often leaving some food uneaten (definitely NOT the typical lab

).

Thanks again for your thoughts!

Christa

elenajas · 04-22-2009, 07:10 PM

Christa,

Im glad to hear Star doesn't have crystals. However, if Star does have problems clearing up the UTI and gets reoccuring ones, the same stuff can be used to prevent and help clear utis. Even people take cranberry pills etc to help with urinary tract health and to prevent UTIs. So you could do the berry balance, or cran pills if you have issues with it later on or they come back (or have a hard time clearing up). Some dogs, and people are more susceptible to UTIs. Sometimes things like Diabetes can be an underlying disease, but that is not always the case.

As for the lab, well it could also just be say and allergy or food intolerance to some ingredient in the Innova that your lab's tummy just didnt like. Think about people who are lactose intolerant for example and how their system causes chronic diahrrea etc for them when they eat something milk related. I would try other brands like the Wellness Core, Wellness, or Solid Gold, Natures Variety, or Evo. Luckily you have a lot of great brands and formulas to choose from. Sometimes also, the bag is wrong--I mean it is a good guide--but every dog is different, and has different metabolisms etc. So, I would take more of the cue from how much your dog eats (since you say he leaves some) and how he is looking/feeling. Your vet can always help you assess over time if he is gaining/losing too much or is just right. I would forgo the Innova in that case for the lab, and try something else. In fact, some of those brands even have more unique protein sources. For example, maybe the food you fed before was Lamb based with only a little chicken, and the Innova was the chicken based food and he has a chicken intolerance or allergy. That could do it easily! So, I would try to find a food that has similiar protein sources to the food he was ok on (but it is junk) and so if it was lamb try to pick a new lamb food from the ones listed. Or if it was chicken, then pick a chicken one. Worst case you can always try some new and unique protein sources (some dogs have lots of allergies) and therefore unique proteins like turkey, red meat, rabbit, venison etc. are all good options. Lastly, if you find your lab is having issues with many foods, Wellness makes a very simple food for dogs with allergies and sensitive tummies. The Wellness Simple Solutions has like 3 ingredients, and is great to help figure out what you are allergic to (and what you can eat), and it is a simple food great for those with tummy issues. It comes in 2 flavors. Also California Naturals isa good allergy food as well. It may not be an allergy per se, but allergy foods are made more simply and with less ingredients and if you have a sensitive tummy it makes sense that that would help. You can also check the level of grain and compare it to the level of grain in the Innova. some dogs do better with grain inclusive foods (and with the same levels) and other dogs do better on grain free foods. The Evo and Wellness Core are grain free (I find my dogs do great on them), and the Innova and regular Wellness for example, are grain inclusive. So you have a lot of options.

Im with you on the Nutro food issues. I wouldnt support them (and just note they are having and FDA issue right now), and for the same reason i wouldnt support grocery brands, nor Merrick.

Good luck!
Also, try that Solid gold transition powder and the canned pure pumpkin--it is pepto for dogs and works for both diahhrea and constipation.

puppymomma · 04-22-2009, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elenajas

It isn't that the vet is trying to get more money or not, it is often that some vets are becoming more versed in canine nutrition, and some are not. The ones who are not, often still use the Hills and Science diet foods as fixes. However, these foods often can mask other illnesses or problems, and are not really things any dog should be eating as they are full of corn, filler, and rarely any meat.

For crystals it depends what kind of crystals you have. If you have struvite crystals then you can help control it with food. You can also add supplements like Berry Balance to help or cranberry pills. Many dog owners control struvite crystals with either a raw diet, or a kibble diet. (Ill talk about struvite b/c they are the most common type, and calcium oxalate crystals cannot easily be controlled by diet except to avoid foods high in oxalate). Struvites form in alkaline urine, so to prevent you need to keep the pH of the urine more on the acidic side. You should choose a kibble accordingly--if you need help with that you can feel free to ask.

Some people also use Ester C (vitamin C), apple cider vinegar, and "tinkle tonic" to help. Often people buy pH strips so they can test the urine and make sure it is staying on the acidic side. Also, lots of fluids is important daily to keep the system flushed and moving. Some people also use a solution of water and apple cider vinegar to cleanse the pee area on the pup as well as often crystals often come with infections, like UTIs and bladder infections.

Basically, you don't need that Hills food, to be honest it is overpriced corn in a bag. And you can get a good kibble that will keep your urine acidic that is actually a healthy food. More and more vets are becoming interested in the newest stuff on nutrition, and less and less are recommending the HIlls or SD. I would suggest a kibble that will keep you acidic, lots of water (you can add it to the kibble if it helps them drink, or a tiny drop of low sodium meat broth to the water if they dont like to drink), Berry Balance (and the ACV if you like) and pH test strips. You can really manage it this way, i know TONS of dogs who have, and who have stayed off antibiotics and struvite free.

I know it is stressfull! Good luck!

KdTurngreen:
Are you only feeding rice and veggies? I assume you are also feeding all the dogs the lamb kibble as well, or the vet told you how to supplement a home cooked diet? Just rice and veggies (in case someone reading your post misunderstood) is not a complete diet for a dog, and is lacking important things like calcium and phosphorus to just name a few. Are you doing a home cooked diet with all the supplements?

My 17 month old rescue has BOTH kinds of crystals in her urine. I detest the prescription foods and have recently changed her to Verus (weight management, both of my dogs are on it - lamb is the protein base). I've looked through my holistic pet health books and I can't find anything on this diagnosis. I saw your reply that I can give her cranberry and some other things, but that was only for one type of crystal. Do you know of anything I can do for the other type?

flipgirl · 04-23-2009, 12:24 AM

A dog can have struvite crystals and still be okay. When an infection is present, however, the crystals can stick to the bladder wall and stick to each other, making it painful for the dog and creating bladder stones.

To dissolve the crystals, you have to restrict certain minerals. Magnesium, phosphorus and protein must be restricted to less than 0.02%, 0.1% and 8% on a dry matter basis respectively. You're looking for a urine specific gravity of 1.020 and a ph of 5.9-6.1 to dissolve the crystals. To prevent, magnesium, phosphorus and protein should be restricted to 0.04 to 0.1 %, less than 0.6 % and less than 25%. The ph of urine should be 6.2 to 6.4. This is what I read in the book, 'Clinical Nutrition for Small Animals" at the animal hospital where I work. My dog has struvite cyrstals as well. The one vet wanted me to feed her Royal CAnin Urinary SO, another vet said Hill's C/D and yet another vet said I only needed to give her the antibiotics to eliminate the infection and hence the crystals. I wanted him to write me a prescription for Struvatrol, a food by Wysong that is for struvite crystals but he said wait until the antibiotics are done and the second urinalysis is done.

I feed premade raw patties and am currently adding a probiotic (because she is on antibiotics and will continue the probiotics for 2 weeks after), Wysong's Biotic PH- (which is supposed to acidify her urine) and I also put some water in her food to increase her water intake. It's only been a week since she was diagnosed so I'll see in another week what the results are. I refuse to feed Hill's S/D or the Urinary SO. The S/d is high in salt to encourage drinking and so does the SO but both have no meat. Why add salt if she migh have problems with her kidneys? The Wysong has meat in it (yes a novel idea) but also herbs that help 'clean out' the urinary tract (uva ursi, dandelion are two examples) - I just have to get a prescription = I don't know how expensive it is but I'm sure it's not cheap. But better than introducing newer problems from feeding the Hills or RC garbage. I'm thinking of going to a holistic vet for a second (actually a fourth) opinion but her fee is outrageous... hopefully, what I'm doing right now for her will rid the crystals. According to the 'Clinical Nutrition for Small Animals" book, it takes an average of 3.5 months to fully eliminate crystals....wonderful. It also depends on if the crystals were clumped or single. Single are easier to eliminate. Also, recurrence is probable if an infection with urease positive bacterium occurs in as little as 2 weeks after the first infection is cleared. Urease positive bacteria (E. coli, staphylococci) are bacteria which can digest urea, an enzyme which is produced as the body breaks down proteins.

2dogday · 04-23-2009, 05:22 PM

I'm wondering about a water filter. We have a filtered water dispenser connected to the fridge and also are in a high mineral area with our regular water. Some mornings, the water from the regular faucet smells bad. I'm going to start using the fridge water for the dogs. i hate the thought of crystals or UTI's to deal with

Kathyy · 04-24-2009, 01:46 AM

That is a good idea. There is a diet designed to eliminate oxalate crystals and stones and it uses distilled water to limit minerals taken in by the dog. Fuzzer Food. Restrict oxalate intake, use distilled water and use specific mineral supplements. Not hard for dog or human to handle.

Flipgirl, great information. Thanks. I do wonder about the protein though. I KNOW that my old girl with chronic kidney disease needs more high quality protein than a healthy adult dog but didn't know that about dogs with 'just' crystals.

lexilu · 05-02-2009, 10:57 AM

I posted about 3 weeks ago about Lexi having crystals - well after her first round of antibiotics and 3 weeks of Royal Canis, she still has crystals. And her PH is still 7.5. The good news is that she has stopped peeing in the house and her bed. The bad news - I now have another Rx for Hills S/O, and a different antibiotic. I've switched her to distilled water. I was told by our vet not to give her the Innova at all (Lexi sneaks kibble from her brother's bowl - I know that's no big deal, but the vet thinks it is).

I was going to add cranberry pills or berry balance after our first round of antibiotics - but now that she is going on the 2nd batch, I hesitate. Is is ok to include it while on antibiotics? And what strength cranberry pill? Our healthfood store had cranberry concentrate, cranberry pills, cranberry extract, and I don't want to give her the wrong thing.

cshellenberger · 05-02-2009, 11:09 AM

Yes, the supplements are fine to give with the antibiotics. Have you tried a raw diet or Home cooked?

Honestly, the Royal Canine is JUST as bad as S/D. I strongly recommend getting a different food that is good for the Crystals as others here have suggested.

lexilu · 05-02-2009, 11:51 AM

I am going to a holistic pet food store today to see what my food options are. Person seems very knowledgable, when I called on phone.

cshellenberger · 05-02-2009, 12:15 PM

Good idea Lexi, often Holistic medicine works wonders when paired up with sensible western medicine. You might ask her about the name of a vet that believes in using both while you're there. One of the reasons I love my vet is that he's open to using both holistic and traditional medicine.

StellaLucyDesi · 05-02-2009, 02:06 PM

Hi! Stella recently had a UTI with struvite crystals. I feel it was caused by her not drinking enough water and eating a very high protein food (Orijen Sr.). I'm not blaming the food at all. But I didn't realize about the "not drinking enough water" soon enough. Anyway.....She was put on an antibiotic and my vet wanted her to go on Royal Canin SO. I didn't want her on this food, so....I did some research. I found out about some foods that might be okay for a dog with urinary problems are:

Eagle Pack Holistic Select Anchovy
Innove Sr. or Lowfat (however, the protein is still too low IMO)
Solid Gold Holistic Blendz (again, protein too low)
Flint River Ranch Trout or Lamb & Rice
Cal. Nat. Herring & Sweet Pot.

In fact, most senior & low-fat foods do have lower phosphorus, magnesium percentages but they also have a very low protein percentage. You can add some can food or fresh chicken to up the protein levels and also add plenty of distilled or filtered water.

I decided to use the Eagle Pack Holistic Select Anchovy combined with EPHS chicken can food as well as some other can foods for variety. And plenty of water mixed in! I also ordered Solid Gold's Berry Balance and put her on that as well. She also gets another supplement called Wholistic Pets Canine Complete Joint Mobility. It contains enzymes, probiotics, vits., glucosamine, chond., MSM. All organic and natural. I also got some PH strips and test her urine often. She has maintained a neutral PH.

The UTI is gone and she doing fine now. I am keeping her on the supplements. I may go back to the Orijen Sr. and just add alot of water and can food. But the Eagle Pack Holistic Select Anchovy is a great food and I just might stay with it. Good luck...the key IMHO is water, and lots of it. Lower phosphorus, magnesium levels and good supplements!

lexilu · 05-02-2009, 04:07 PM

Just came back from 3 different stores- a bit more confused then before, but maybe on the right track. The holistic store suggested Orijen (42% protein )or Merrick B/G (32% protein) for the golden and Eagle Pack Holistic Select Chicken (canned) for the struvit crystal pup. And a Probiotic /Enzyme thing. I bought the Orijen, the canned EPHS, and the probiotic stuff, and a couple of cranberry bones - not cheap!

So my hubby then told me if she's got a UTI or crystals, maybe her kidneys are compromised, and a high protein diet may be a problem.

I went to a 2nd store (and a third), and bought Wellness Core (reduced fat) with 32% protein. The Innova that they currently eat has about 24%. I'm confused.

I also agree that water is the key issue for Lexi. I'm thinking about soaking kibble in water overnight in the fridge and adding some of the EPHS, to it for added water.

So here are my questions:
1. Which one should I return?
2. What is the desired protein percentage?
3. Would increasing protein cause any problems?
4. Are kidneys involved with crystals?

It's amazing how stupid I feel, so your help is really appreciated. Thank you ,
Judy

lexilu · 05-04-2009, 06:05 PM

well the Golden made the decision for me, when I offered him both foods. Orijen won hands down.

Snuggles · 05-05-2009, 10:34 PM

What is wrong with Royal Canine? I think that is the prescription dog food that our dog is on?

StellaLucyDesi · 05-06-2009, 12:03 AM

There is nothing inherently "wrong" with Royal Canin SO. In fact, it probably does what it claims to do (dissolve crystals), but (and this is the key) IMHO I feel the ingredients used are far inferior to other foods. The meat content is way down in the list of ingredients. It is preservied naturally (this is the only positive I'll give it, however). I did buy a bag....when I opened it, it smelled like "corn nuts" (a snack I used to see when I was a kid). Pure corn! It's even yellowy in color! I just couldn't bring myself to feed this to Stella. Now, if it were a matter of life or death, then we'd talk! Well, I did research to see if there was another route I could go with Stella. I went with a lower to moderate protein food that has lower ph and way better ingredients (Eagle Pack Holistic Select Anchovy dry) combined with a wet food (EPHS chicken as well as other brand varieties), Solid Gold Berry Balance, a supplement called Wholistic Canine Complete Joint Mobility (this has enyzymes/probiotics, vits., skin "stuff", glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM) all mixed with water. And another thing....remember WATER, WATER, and more WATER!

cshellenberger · 05-06-2009, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snuggles

What is wrong with Royal Canine? I think that is the prescription dog food that our dog is on?

RC is FULL of corn, soy and by products, all inferior ingredients, for what you pay you could be feeding your dog a MUCH better food.